Katrina

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Re: Katrina

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:32 pm

When it comes to Federal responsibility, okay, I'll admit, I'm gunning for my favorite TO right now, I believe this is a quintessential example of the care and thought that GWB put into his appointments:

Brown pushed from last job: Horse group: FEMA chief had to be `asked to resign'

I suppose that prior to that position, he had some other job that made him emminently qualified to run FEMA?!

I've heard it said the GWB administration would like to, and has been quietly working toward, the dismantlement of FEMA. It would seem this appointment, in the tradidtion started by Ronaldus Maximus of tearing down agencies by appointing like-minded administrative salvors to head them, is being carried on by GWB.

As Haggis said earlier, FEMA was at one time regarded as one of the premier disaster relief agencies in the world. It's a shame to see it falter, whether it's because of increased bureaucracy, as Haggis proffered, or a victim of targeting by GWB. In either case, the real shame of it is the people who have died as a result.

I still hold the Feds, and GWB in particular, primarily responsible tfor the morass in leadership in this disaster. When Congress could convene on Palm Sunday to enact legislation to attempt to keep Terri Schiavo's body alive, GWB chose to go golfing while he knew a terrible hurricane was about to strike the Gulf Coast. IMO, his time could have been much better spent gathering information about the progress of the hurricane as it was happening, in order to make the best informed decisions when it came to crunch time. Instead, we saw a procession of GWB administration officials stumbling around Propoganda Minister Rove's talking points for the ensuing week. I heard three seperate quotes of some GWB official quoting a headline, "New Orleans Dodged a Bullet" with regards to levee failure, meaning NO was spared the compound disaster of levee breaches. That headline didn't exsist on any newspaper anywhere in the world. As a matter of fact, prior to Churtow's(sp?) interview where he quoted that "headline", the Times-Picayune headline for that morning(Tuesday) was about the levee breaches that had occurred on Monday.

This is the same bunch that had all of this intelligence and inside information that got us into Iraq, and now they're so misinformed they weren't aware of the levee breaches days after the fact?!!

What about all of the rescue efforts that were blatantly blocked by FEMA officials? What about the convoy of Wal-Mart trucks carrying bottled water that was turned around by FEMA officials? When has anything like that ever happened before in a disaster in this country?

I listened to Sean Hannity talk with his men on the ground in NO, Sam Sheppard(I think that was the first name), and none other than Geraldo Rivera, both of who were supposed to be on a mission to find good news on the rescue efforts on NO. Both had nothing good to report, and were near panic over the bungling they were witnessing. Geraldo broke down into sobs on the air over the fact FEMA officials wouldn't let people walk out of the convention center down a highway that was passable, high and dry, all the way out of town. He interviewed two different mothers, one who had a 10 month-old, and the other a 15 month-old, both of whom were frustrated because they weren't allowed to leave town, and had no formula for their babies.

Geraldo kept saying, "This isn't about Republicans or Democrats. Just let them walk out of this Goddamned place!"

Perhaps I give them too much credit, but the people in power in this country right now knew damn good and well what was happening in there, and chose to respond as they did. For what reason, only lunatics can speculate

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Re: Katrina

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:53 pm

Broussard's Wal-Mart Story Unconfirmed
By: mikewas · Section: Diaries


Aaron Broussard, President of Jefferson Parish, appeared this Sunday on Meet the Press. He made some extremly seriouss charges that officials at FEMA had actively interefered with assisitance efforts in his Parish. Responding to host Tim Russert's questions on local and state-level accountability, he said:

Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis.
Notably, Wal-Mart has not made public comment about Broussard's allegations. Of all the claims Broussard made, this seemed the easiest to confirm.

So I called Wal-Mart's public relations office (479-273-4314) to ask them for comment. Wal-Mart's Sharon Weber returned my call. She told me that they had not heard of the incident - which supposedly took place last week - until they "read about it in the newspaper." When I asked if she could confirm or deny that the story was true, she told me she would have to check and call me back later today.

Weber was able to tell me that any relief efforts in the field would have been subject to any orders given by FEMA. Other media sources have been quite clear that many shipments of aid from Wal-Mart have made it to relief distribution centers, and this reporter thinks that Wal-Mart's efforts are commendable.

More as this story develops.
UPDATE: Sharon Weber of Wal-Mart called back. She said that last week, FEMA diverted those water trucks to "another location, which [FEMA] felt was in greater need than where they were headed." Weber emphasized that Wal-Mart would not override any FEMA decisions made in emergency situations. So Broussard, who claimed that Wal-Mart's aid was ourtight rejected, was wrong. Based on Wal-Mart's information, their trucks were taken where FEMA thought they were needed most. It would appear that the same story occurred with the Coast Guard fuel issue. Broussard said that FEMA wouldn't release the fuel to Jefferson Parish - but surely that fuel went somewhere else it was needed. Thanks to Wal-Mart's Sharon Weber for tracking down this information.


"Sent back" and "diverted to another location" are two different things.
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Re: Katrina

Postby Trumpetmaster » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:08 pm

Shapley,

Brown should go down just for the fact that FEMA turned away help from others during this catastophe. Screwed up.....

There is enough blame for everyone on this.
They should stop finger pointing and focus
on helping people.

Regards,
TM :)
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Re: Katrina

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:36 pm

TM,

What help did they turn away?

Wal-Mart says they co-ordinated all shipments through FEMA. Broussard does not say who directed the three trucks (Wal-Mart sent nine trucks to the area at that time,) to New Orleans. FEMA may well have already earmarked those trucks to another area, and local officials tried to divert them without proper authorization.

There is a lot of fight over jurisdiction. The Governor does not want to relinquish any authority, apparently, while the government has it's rules on deployment of resources that require her to give them authority over it. Mayor Nagin said as much in interviews over the weekend. He thinks beaurocracy needs to be put aside during emergencies, but that cannot happen. If President Bush deploys troops for law and order purposes, or sends troops into a soveriegn state, he will be in violation of the Constitution.

Look at the statements by Haley Barbour:

O'Brien: The governor of Mississippi is Haley Barbour. He joins us now live. Governor Barbour, good to have you with us. Bring us up to date on the numbers. First of all, those numbers I just gave, are they accurate to the moment?

Barbour: Well, they're credible, Miles. They're certainly not official, but it's because the government has a policy of not counting fatalities until they've been certified by the coroner. But those numbers are credible, and we worry that they may go up some.

O'Brien: And when you say, "They may go up some," you've obviously been down there. I've been down there. I've seen the extent of the wreckage. I get the sense that they may go up quite a bit. What are you hearing about people who have missing loved ones or friends?

Barbour: Well, you have been down there, and between the coast and the railroad for an area of probably about 50 miles, there's total devastation. I mean, there's virtually nothing standing. Homes that are just totally obliterated. And going through that debris, some of which is waist deep or as tall as a man, going through that takes time. We've rescued a lot of people, and we've found a lot of people. But under all of that debris, it's realistic to believe there's going to be more people.

O'Brien: Let's talk about the response and what was put into position in advance of this storm. We knew about Katrina. We knew it was a strong storm developing for several days before it ever made landfall. Do you have the sense - because it's quite clear that state and local officials cannot handle this on their own. This is too overwhelming. Do you have the sense that the federal government has dropped the ball here, sir?

Barbour: I really don't. And I think it's very unfair for the federal government, for you to say we knew this was a great powerful storm. This was a category 1 hurricane when it hit Florida. Now that's the truth.

O'Brien: Governor, it was a category 5 storm.

Barbour: The federal government ...

O'Brien: A category 5 storm when it was ...

Barbour: No, it was a category 1 - it was a category 1 storm when it hit Florida. It was a category 5 storm a few hours before it came ashore.

O'Brien: No, no, Governor Barbour...

Barbour: The federal government has been a tremendous partner in this. They have helped ...

O'Brien: Governor Barbour, surely there was enough knowledge in advance that this was a huge killer storm a matter of days, not hours, before it ever struck landfall. And it seems to me the military ...

Barbour: Now, Miles, if this is an interview or an argument, I don't care. But if you want to let me tell you what I think, I will.

O'Brien: OK, go ahead.

Barbour: And what I think is this storm strengthened in the Gulf. We begged the people to leave, and thousands of people left. Thousands of people left New Orleans. The federal government came in here from the first minute - in fact, in advance. They have been tremendously helpful, whether it's the Coast Guard, the Corps of Engineers, FEMA.

O'Brien: But ...

Barbour: I don't think it's at all fair ...

O'Brien: But ...

Barbour: ... and I'm not going to agree to that, because I don't believe it's true.

O'Brien: But conspicuously absent from that short list you just gave us was the military, the Pentagon. This is a type of situation that cries out for the kind of support, the kind of logistics, the kind of coordination the military is ideally suited for. Why weren't more military assets prepositioned and ready for the possibility here?

Barbour: We prepositioned more than 1,000 National Guard, 175 on the coastal counties, 1,000 more 60 miles inland, so that they wouldn't be swept away in the storm. And as soon as it became clear where the storm was going to hit, even Alabama had sent us National Guard. Pennsylvania has offered us and is sending us 2,500 National Guard.

O'Brien: But ...

Barbour: Would I have liked to have had 5,000 National Guard on the ground on Tuesday morning? Yes, that's not - other states are not going to give up their National Guard until they see what's happening to them. I don't blame them.

O'Brien: But I'm talking about assets, like, you know, amphibious vehicles that the Navy has. It has helicopter support, hospital support, the ability to generate power, that sort of thing. We haven't seen that kind of thing, the kind of thing we saw, incidentally, in the wake of the tsunami.

Barbour: Well, I'm not going to be critical of what the federal government has done. We're very grateful for it. You know, it's easy to go back and pick the bones, but we feel like they have tried very hard.

This is the worst natural disaster that's ever struck the United States. Everybody down here is trying hard. Everybody is tired and fractious. So, I don't want to argue with you about it. But a lot of people from all over the country are helping us, and we really appreciate them, because we're making progress. And we're going to recover from what has been a grievous blow to our state, not just the coast. And we're going to rebuild, and it's going to be bigger and better than ever. But we're not going to do it by nitpicking.

O'Brien: Governor Haley Barbour, Mississippi. Thank you for your time, sir.

Barbour: Thank you, Miles.
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Re: Katrina

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:40 pm

Hi Shap,

Even if the Wal-Mart story may be inaccurate, there are scores of other factual examples of FEMA turning away offered assistance. This is unprecedented and wrong.

Why would they do it? Is it because GWB hates poor, black people, as some allege?

Even your beloved Faux News couldn't seem to spin it......

<small>[ 09-07-2005, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
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Re: Katrina

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:54 pm

If you can spare a few moments from spite, nastiness, and general political wrangling, here's an actual opportunity to help out.

Posting this from an announcement sent through the San Diego Council of quilt guilds, about a relief effort being coordinated by the Houston International Quilt Show (very reputable organization) Note that while they are specifically soliciting quilts, they are also asking for sheets, blankets, and so forth.


QUILTS FOR COMFORT Many thousands of the Katrina refugees are being sent to Houston RIGHT NOW, and no one knows how long they will have to be here. Most of them escaped the hurricane's fury with only the clothes on their backs--nothing more--and they may have absolutely nothing to go home to. They don't even know. The Astrodome is ready as temporary housing, but there is a serious shortage of bedding. Part 2 of QUILTERS COMFORT AMERICA is the collection of quilts of all kinds to be distributed to the refugees here in Houston so that they have something soft to sleep on instead of the hard concrete floors of the temporary shelters and something warm to cover up with against the chill of otherwise welcome air-conditioning (we've been in the 90s and 100s for weeks now).

Many of us have unfinished projects filling our closets and cupboards. Get out one of those projects--twin size preferred but no smaller than baby quilt size, please--and finish it up for this. Use lightweight batting--do whatever binding is the quickest, even a close zigzag stitch. You don't have to quilt it--tie it! If you have only small projects, add borders. Think about a mother lying on the floor cradling her baby--that's the size quilt we need to provide. These quilts are not meant to be heirlooms, although they will probably be treasured for many years as a symbol of the caring of strangers. Tie them, machine quilt them, work in a group with your friends and finish several on an assembly line, do whatever it takes to get these finished quickly. THE NEED FOR THESE QUILTS IS RIGHT NOW! If you already have some finished pieces that you don't have plans for, send them too, as long as they are no smaller than baby quilt size. If you are a professional, you may have sample quilts that have become shop-worn or faded but are still clean and very usable in an emergency--send them!--we are IN an emergency! Be sure to put a label on the back of your quilt or sign it with a kind thought and your name and date. Every piece will go to a refugee family driven from their homes by the hurricane.

To participate in QUILTERS COMFORT AMERICA, send an email to exec5@quilts.com (subject line: COMFORT AMERICA) to let us know how many quilts you are sending. That will help us help the Red Cross in its planning. Please do not expect a confirmation that your quilt has been received or any kind of nice thank-you. Sometimes we just have to do things because they are the RIGHT things to do--this is one of those times. People need help...the kind of help WE can give.

Use this address to send your quilt/s: COMFORT AMERICA PROJECT c/o International Festival 7660 Woodway, Suite 550 Houston, TX 77063 Please note: for security, do NOT use the word 'quilt' ANYWHERE in your address label!

Many of us have also amassed linen closets full of old but completely usable sheets--perhaps a size you no longer use, or juvenile prints that your college age kids don't like anymore. Clean sheets and blankets are also most welcome to QUILTERS COMFORT AMERICA. Naturally, everything should be clean and fresh. These folks have lived with enough mud and dirt to last them the rest of their lives--let's give them a clean bed to rest in. Please note that we cannot use fabric, patterns, scraps, etc.

Quilt Festival will serve as the collection point for these quilts, and we will deliver them DAILY to the American Red Cross staffing the refugee centers in Houston, where they will be distributed by the Red Cross volunteers. Because we are right here in Houston where more than 10,000 of the refugees will be, we can make a difference RIGHT NOW...if you'll help.

Time is critical--the need is NOW! People are arriving by the hour, children are bedding down on the cold concrete, bedding is needed by people of all ages who have lost everything in this horrible storm. Please help if you can. If you live in or around Houston, you are welcome to hand deliver your donations to us. Our address is 7660 Woodway, Suite 550, Houston 77063. You can find it on Mapquest. Please note that this is one block of Woodway that runs perpendicular to all the rest of Woodway.
>^..^<
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Re: Katrina

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:55 pm

I've avoided posting Fox News because they are considered by some to be so inaccurate (unlike, apparently, your source on the Wal-Mart story).

I've watched CNN since the storm, and they are going out of their way to try to find horror stories about FEMA. I watched the exchange posted above, and O'Brien was doing everything in his power to get Barbour to find fault with FEMA. My company sent a pickup load of supplies to our friends in Mississippi on Saturday. They went through Louisiana to get there, because they had been warned that highway 49 was impassible or closed. Food and water were being delivered, and had been for a long time. The devastation was incredible, starting just south of Jackson, MS. You cannot imagine it.

V/R
Shapley

<small>[ 09-07-2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>
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Re: Katrina

Postby Trumpetmaster » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:04 pm

Been reading articles on the internet (maybe not all accurate) but it seems FEMA has screwed up from the beginning. It's not all their fault as they are a shell of what they once were.

It's a shame...

There is too much blame to be put in place at all levels of government.

The lesson learned here is
as prepared as they thought they were....
they weren't....
Local all the way up to the Fed. Gvmt needs to take a serious look at what happened and make sure this never happens again....
Natural or ManMade Disasters....
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Re: Katrina

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:13 pm

RE:

Why would they do it? Is it because GWB hates poor, black people, as some allege?

And that's another thing. You call President Bush divisive, but here are these race-baiters, not content that there have been 10,000 to 20,000 deaths, they need more, so they seek to start a race war over this situation. Jesse Jackson calls people "racist" if we use the term "refugee". Some goofy "singer" at a fundraiser claims President Bush hates black people.

There are about 4,000,000 people affected directly by this storm. Black people, white people, and others as well.

Everyone seems ready to call for Mr. Brown's resignation, or firing. Like Karl Rove in the "CIA leak scandal that wasn't", he makes a wonderful target of opportunity. Of course, there is no effort to hold anyone in the Governor's office responsible, even though she, ultimately, is responsible for the emergency preparedness and response in her State.

V/R
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Re: Katrina

Postby Trumpetmaster » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:20 pm

Shapley,
I have stated blame goes to Local, State, and Fed Gvmt...

Granted, this catastrophe is a once in a lifetime event (hopefully).

You are correct, there is a power struggle going on that is unfortunately being played out before the American public and it is sad.

They should all shut up and get down to business.

It appears from all the information that Brown was and is not qualified to head up FEMA. Looks to me like he was given the job as a favor from a friend.... and that's why I think he should get axed.

The politicians should hope they don't get voted out of office next time round for this mess.

They should impeech the Mayor, Governor.... etc...
for screwing this up and then pointing fingers..


Regards,

TM
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Re: Katrina

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:22 pm

FEMA was dragged over the coals after Hurricane Andrew. President Clinton revamped them after that disaster, but they've never really been put to the test since, with the exception of 9/11, which, as I've pointed out, benefitted from excellent local and State response. I'm not just patting Rudy Guiliani on the back here. The entire NYPD and FDNY were on time and on track and, despite taking enormous losses in personnel and having to rebuild the chain of command on the spot, handled the crisis with skill and professionalism that would make anyone proud. This is, really, the first major test of FEMA's ability since Andrew. I think they have not been up to the task, but they are just one weak link in a very weak chain that starts with the local constabulary that cannot control their own officers.

V/R
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Re: Katrina

Postby BigJon@Work » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:30 pm

Originally posted by Haggis@wk:
goto this site and scroll down a bit.....
Was that directed at me since I am about to have a baby at age 40?

<small>[ 09-07-2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: BigJon@Work ]</small>
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Re: Katrina

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:48 pm

Originally posted by BigJon@Work:
Originally posted by Haggis@wk:
[b] goto this site and scroll down a bit.....
Was that directed at me since I am about to have a baby at age 40? [/b]
If not, this is:

Welcome, to my world........

:D
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Re: Katrina

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:48 pm

BigJon,

I think that was directed at Piq, who wanted glaring lessons.

But, if you're going to be a parent, you may want to print out the Raymond Burr picture and post it by your mirror, so you can practice glaring.

V/R
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Re: Katrina

Postby Angie Parkes » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:52 pm

A colleague shared this warning about New Orleans with me. Ironically, it was published on September 11, 2001.

Given what was known, it makes the debacle all the more tragic.

------------------------
Angie
Cheers,
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Re: Katrina

Postby Marye » Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:58 pm

:(
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Re: Katrina

Postby BigJon@Work » Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:06 pm

Originally posted by Shapley:
BigJon,

The ocean-going ships would be incapable of negotiating the twists and bends of the Mississippi River. In addition, the river is maintained to a minimum depth of 9 1/2 feet, far less than the draft of most ocean-going vessels.

Ocean freight is discharged at New Orleans onto Barge, truck, rail, and smaller ships, for shipping to various parts of the country. It also arrives there from throughout the nation for loading and shipping overseas. There really isn't a suitable substitute unless we dig a very big canal to tie in to the river somewhere upstream. A noble idea, but I doubt such a venture would get far in todays environmentally conscience world.

V/R
Shapley
I guess I wasn't clear enough. We’ve spent a ton of government money over the last 100 years forcing the Mississippi to do what it doesn’t naturally want to do to keep NOLA, city and ports, from being washed away. Had the bridge not been built, and had we diverted most of that government money into making the lower portion of the mighty Miss into a navigable waterway for ocean vessels, we would now have some fail-safes and options for our waterborne commerce.
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Re: Katrina

Postby haggis » Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:56 pm

OT, there are more whites than blacks in NOLA area. In fact there's only one location where the blacks outnumber the whites.

I find the racial baiting to be over the top.

Sorry if I inadvertently offended you, BJ.

Actually, now that I think of it, I suggest you bookmark Mr. Lileks and read his earlier posts. He sound to be a consumate parent in his late 30s or early 40s (I don't think he's ever told us his age

He has done some pretty detail story telling about his young daughter since she was born and I wish that I was a new father sometimes after reading his stuff (actually, 'toid got those juices flowing)

This is for Piq to practise

<img src="http://home1.gte.net/res0cuod/images/perryhead.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Re: Katrina

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:09 pm

BigJon,

My point was, I don't think it would be possible to build and maintain a channel of sufficient size, length, and depth to allow ships to manuever far enough inland to get beyond the floodplain of Louisiana, and still connect to the Mississippi River navigable waterway. Environmentally, it would be impolitic, while being fiscally prohibitive. To the best of my recollection, Louisiana is a flood zone as far north as Baton Rouge, as the lower part of the state is almost entirely bayou.

Nor would it be feasible to divert the Mississippi to, say Galveston or Mobile, as the environmental and fiscal impact would prohibit it.

V/R
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Re: Katrina

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:39 pm

Hi Haggis,

With regards to the racial baiting, I do not necessarily believe that to be the case. Just tossing out WAS.

BTW, thanks a lot. Ever since she came home from work, she's been practising her glare ..................... on me......................

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