Why is Paris burning?

[Haggis@wk]

One opinion

” Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.

In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.

The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local administration.

A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message: The French authorities should keep out.

"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local "emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities. “


The French authorities have been struggling unsuccessfully with an ongoing intifada for years, trying to restrict attacks on non-Jewish targets. I commented last year that 10% of French Jews were considering immigrating to Israel; I wonder what that percentage is today?

The violence has been downplayed for more than a year; on a “quiet night” in France nearly three dozen cars are torched by the French “youths” that are responsible for the last 11 nights of rioting. And the riots are not localized in and around Paris; they are widespread and appear to be getting more violent as rioters shoot at police.

There are also reports of “riot like” activities in Berlin and Denmark.


It's possible (thought I can't see how) that the French govt. will pull something positive out of what is happening in France.

My fear is that a short term crackdown will lead to concessions to Sharia, De Facto if not De Jure now, and the French will allow large swaths of France to become Islamic states (Eurabia?) within the confines of the EU.

This is very, very bad.

[barfle]

Yeah, it's bad, but the reason it's so bad is that it was allowed to fester. From your link:

the police have not been present in that suburb for years.

"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local "emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities.

That demand seems quite unrealistic, since residents of any location are subject to the laws of that area.

I say "shame on the French" for their neglect of the situation.

[analog]

Sounds like "West Side Story on Steroids" over there.

There's a growing voice of concern about the demographics of Europe over next fifty years.
This one might be a tad alarmist:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GH23Aa01.html


".....Islam has one generation in which to establish a global theocracy before hitting a demographic barrier. Islam has enough young men - the pool of unemployed Arabs is expected to reach 25 million by 2010 - to fight a war during the next 30 years. Because of mass migration to Western Europe, the worst of the war might be fought on European soil......

...By no means does that imply that all of these 25 million will become suicide bombers, but a great many of them are likely to emigrate to Europe, including Eastern Europe, where populations are stagnant and about to decline. A Muslim takeover of Western Europe surely is a possible outcome."

Just when you thought it was 'over over there'.

That's why I posted elsewhere I'm relieved that radical Islam has been confronted.

<small>[ 11-07-2005, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: analog ]</small>

[Haggis@wk]

Rioting in France Spreads to 300 Towns

very, VERY bad...

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by analog:

That's why I posted elsewhere I'm relieved that radical Islam has been confronted.

I agree, radical Islam does need to be confronted, forcefully. However, it seems like invading Iraq created a fertile breeding and proving ground rather than confront radical Islam.

PS. "I think, therefore I am depressed."

<small>[ 11-07-2005, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[piqaboo]

I'm fascinated by the use of "demand".
"All we demand is...".

hello. All we demand is that you conform to the laws of the country in which you reside. That you make any attempts to change those laws peaceful attempts per the systems in place, and that you leave if you feel another country would be more supportive of your culture.

But of course, this is assuming that these folks wanted to immigrate. Apparently a false assumption. Apparently what they wanted was to invade, which they are doing, via immigration.
Clever. Definitely "outside the box". And very dangerous to the rest of us.

[haggis]

Piq,
You raise a good point and one that the MSM and all the punditry are trying to avoid. These "youths" are mainly 2nd and 3rd generation French citizens who are Muslim. They accept radical Islam as a way of life and are now insisting that the 10% of their country who are Muslim accept Sharia and Muslim rules.

They are not rioting for something as much as against something.

They hate the French Socialism that recognizing that everyone in France is French, period. There are no French census statistics on racial divides because the French insist, "we are all French."

In effect that just continues to marginalize those that the French deem to be "non-French;" essentially anyone of color and/or originally from Africa.

I expected what is happening to happen but not for another 5 - 10 years.

I'm holding my breath that it doesn't expand to other countries in the EU but I'm not hopeful. The next big powder kegs, in my opinion, after France is Belgium and the Netherlands. If this is going to spread, then I expect it will start in either or both countries.

Fortunately, for the French Govt, the use of violence by the rioters might have given them the break they need to forcibly put down the riots. The early targets of the rioters were vehicles for the specific reason that burning a vehicle sends a strong message but not so strong as to invite lethal retaliation.

No one in France would back the government if it began shooting people for burning cars, but now the cops have thrown up their hands after being shot and shot at and insist that the military is the only organization that can put down the rioters.

Now that the rioters have overplayed their hand, the authorities are going to be looking at the “lethal retaliation” option very closely. They began the escalation today with a curfew (10 days too late in my estimation) and the next progression will be to shoot rioters who defy the curfew.

As I said earlier, the French Govt might pull this off, but I can’t see how.

I’m not exaggerating when I said this is very, VERY bad.

Watch Belgium and the Netherlands very closely.

[haggis]

Piq?

This create a question that I hadn't thought of.

"The American Revolution started as a tax protest. The Civil War was a dispute over states' rights and the role of the federal government. World War I began because of a single radical with a gun.

In each case, the resulting violence transformed the conflict, radicalizing the participants until by the final objectives were unthinkable when the conflict began.

The alarming surge of violence in France and Western Europe indicates that even if the riots die down, it will only be because the perpetrators are reorganizing and preparing for the next stage."

[piqaboo]

Norway.
Muslim rapist in Norway have been declared not guilty, because the non-arab rapee was "dressed provocatively" and thereby incited the attack.

[Shapley]

Well, I'm confident that the French are on top of this. As soon as they determine who is responsible, they will surrender to them.

Just trying to make light of a very bad situation.

The interesting thing is that the French thought that they were exempt from this sort of violence because of their position on the Iraq situation. They, of course, were wrong. The radicals don't give a damn about political boundaries or political ideologies, they only know hatred for everything that doesn't conform to their view of the world. The French gave them refuge from the oppression they experienced in their native lands. I'm sure the first generation there showed some level of gratititude, but they're descendants have not followed suit.

V/R
Shapley

[Schmeelkie]

It seems to me that the majority Muslims have a hard time keeping a rein on their radical elements. People often say, with fear in their voices, that Muslims want everyone to become Muslim. Which is probably right, but most Christians also think the world would be better if everyone became a Christian. Christians just, for the most part, stopped killing people over this a long time ago. The radical Islamists want everyone to become Muslim, and if you don't agree, you should become dead. Really not the best way to convert people to your way of thinking, but whoever said radicals were thinking calmly and rationally?

Anyway, another note, in Orson Scott Card's version of the future (in the Ender's Shadow series of books), radical Islam got put down when someone nuked Mecca. A couple of hundred years later, there's a resurrgence of Muslim power - a new Caliph is elected, but again, mainstream Muslims couldn't control the radical element. That's his view - seems well-thought out to me, but I really hope no one feels the need to nuke Mecca....

[Haggis@wk]

Demographics are Destiny

”It is one thing to know in theory that France has undergone major ethnic changes over the past 30 years and another thing altogether to confront a mass ethnic insurgency. The figures are inescapable. There are about 60 million inhabitants in continental France, plus 2 million citizens in the overseas territories (essentially the French West Indies and La Reunion island in the Indian Ocean). About 20 million, most of them white and Christian, are over 50.

Out of the remaining 40 million or so, 10 million or so belong to the ethnic minorities: Muslim North Africans, Muslim Turks or Near Easterners, Muslim Black Africans, Christian West Indian, African or Reunionese blacks. When one regards to the youngest age brackets, the proportion is even larger. It is estimated that 35% of all French inhabitants under 20, and 50% of all inhabitants in the major urban centers, belong to the ethnic minorities. Islam alone may claim respectively 30% and 45%. Since war is essentially the business of youths, the combatant ratio in any ethnic war may thus be one to one.

Which brings us to a second question: How ethnic is the present violence in France? Liberal commentators, both in France and abroad, tend to say that poverty and unemployment, rather than race or religion, are the driving force behind the riots. Mr. Villepin himself tends to share this view, at least in part. He said yesterday on TV that he is earmarking enormous credits for housing rehabilitation, education, and state-supported jobs in the areas where the unrest has developed. But the fact remains that only ethnic youths are rioting, that most of them explicitly pledge allegiance to Islam and such Muslim heroes as Osama bin Laden, that the Islamic motto - Allahu Akbar - is usually their war cry, and that they submit only to archconservative or radical imams.

The fact also remains, according to many witnesses, that the rioters torch only "white" cars, meaning white owned cars, and spare "Islamic" or "black" ones. One way to discriminate between them is to look for ethnic signs like a sticker with Koranic verses or a picture of the Kaaba in Mekka or a stylized map of Africa. Further evidence of the animating influence in the riots lies with the French rap music to which the perpetrators listen. Such music obsessively describes White France as a sexual prey.”

Very, very, VERY bad!

[trombonepirate]

Has anyone ever read "The End of Civilization" (or something like that. Can't remember the exact title.) Basically it says that the war of politics and boundries are over and the next big conflicts will be drawn along religious lines.
TBP