what do we make fun of ?

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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby DavidS » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:05 pm

Originally posted by BigJon@Work:
Ratsnake,

Read it. Learn it. Love it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

:)
Surely it's a matter of taste?
I mean eg James Joyce at the end of Ulysses got on great without such rules.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby barfle » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:43 pm

Originally posted by DavidS:
Surely it's a matter of taste?
I mean eg James Joyce at the end of Ulysses got on great without such rules.
Or maybe a matter of clarity, which ought to be important when you're trying to get an idea across.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby BigJon@Work » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:53 pm

I'm persuaded that Joyce is losing whatever position of respect he had once gained. I believe him to be an aberration.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby BigJon@Work » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:55 pm

Here is another take on the history of the Islamist terrorists. I don't agree with all the points made, but it presents a compelling case. It also offers a means of framing a solution.
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6564

<small>[ 02-23-2006, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: BigJon@Work ]</small>
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby GreatCarouser » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:16 pm

I'm a little surprised this isn't geting more play..it's from Slate a couple of days ago:

Stand up for Denmark!
Why are we not defending our ally?
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, Feb. 21, 2006, at 12:29 PM ET

Put the case that we knew of a highly paranoid religious cult organization with a secretive leader. Now put the case that this cult, if criticized in the press, would take immediate revenge by kidnapping a child. Put the case
that, if the secretive leader were also to be lampooned, two further children would be killed at random. Would the press be guilty of
"self-censorship" if it declined to publish anything that would inflame the said cult? Well, yes it would be guilty, but very few people would insist on the full exertion of the First Amendment right. However, the consequences for the cult and its leader would be severe as well. All civilized people would regard it as hateful and dangerous, and steps would be taken to circumscribe its influence, and to ensure that no precedent was set.

The incredible thing about the ongoing Kristallnacht against Denmark (and in some places, against the embassies and citizens of any Scandinavian or even European Union nation) is that it has resulted in, not opprobrium for the
religion that perpetrates and excuses it, but increased respectability! A small democratic country with an open society, a system of confessional pluralism, and a free press has been subjected to a fantastic, incredible,
organized campaign of lies and hatred and violence, extending to one of the gravest imaginable breaches of international law and civility: the violation of diplomatic immunity. And nobody in authority can be found to state the
obvious and the necessary—that we stand with the Danes against this defamation and blackmail and sabotage. Instead, all compassion and concern
is apparently to be expended upon those who lit the powder trail, and who yell and scream for joy as the embassies of democracies are put to the torch in the capital cities of miserable, fly-blown dictatorships. Let's be sure
we haven't hurt the vandals' feelings.

You wish to say that it was instead a small newspaper in Copenhagen that lit the trail? What abject masochism and nonsense. It was the arrogant Danish mullahs who patiently hawked those cartoons around the world (yes, don't worry, they are allowed to exhibit them as much as they like) until they finally provoked a vicious response against the economy and society of their
host country. For good measure, they included a cartoon that had never been published in Denmark or anywhere else. It showed the Prophet Mohammed as a pig, and may or may not have been sent to a Danish mullah by an anonymous ill-wisher. The hypocrisy here is shameful, nauseating, unpardonable. The original proscription against any portrayal of the prophet—not that this
appears to be absolute—was superficially praiseworthy because it was intended as a safeguard against idolatry and the worship of images. But now see how this principle is negated. A rumor of a cartoon in a faraway country
is enough to turn the very name Mohammed into a fetish-object and an excuse for barbaric conduct. As I write this, the death toll is well over 30
and—guess what?—a mullah in Pakistan has offered $1 million and a car as a bribe for the murder of "the cartoonist." This incitement will go unpunished and most probably unrebuked.

Could things become any more sordid and cynical? By all means. In a mindless attempt at a tuquoque, various Islamist groups and regimes have dug deep
into their sense of wit and irony and proposed a trade-off. You make fun of "our" prophet and we will deny "your" Holocaust. Even if there were any
equivalence, and Jewish mobs were now engaged in trashing Muslim shops and embassies, it would feel degrading even to engage with such a low and cheap
stunt. I suppose that one should be grateful that the Shoah is only to be denied rather than, as in some Islamist propaganda, enthusiastically
affirmed and set out as a model for emulation. But only a moral cretin thinks that anti-Semitism is a threat only to Jews. The memory of the Third
Reich is very vivid in Europe precisely because a racist German regime also succeeded in slaughtering millions of non-Jews, including countless Germans, under the demented pretext of extirpating a nonexistent Jewish conspiracy.
As it happens, I am one of the few people to have publicly defended David Irving's right to publish, and I think it outrageous that he is in prison in
least absolute and consistent. Those who incite murder and arson, or who silkily justify it, are incapable of rising above the childish glee that
culminates in the assertion that two wrongs make a right.

The silky ones may be more of a problem in the long term than the flagrantly vicious and crazy ones. Within a short while—this is a warning—the shady term "Islamophobia" is going to be smuggled through our customs. Anyone accused of it will be politely but firmly instructed to shut up, and to
forfeit the constitutional right to criticize religion. By definition, anyone accused in this way will also be implicitly guilty. Thus the "soft" censorship will triumph, not from any merit in its argument, but from its association with the "hard" censorship that we have seen being imposed over the past weeks. A report ($$) in the New York Times of Feb. 13 was as carefully neutral as could be but nonetheless conveyed the sense of menace.
"American Muslim leaders," we were told, are more canny. They have "managed to build effective organizations and achieve greater integration, acceptance and economic success than their brethren in Europe have. They portray the
cartoons as a part of a wave of global Islamophobia and have encouraged Muslim groups in Europe to use the same term." In other words, they are leveraging worldwide Islamic violence to drop a discreet message into the American discourse.

You may have noticed the recurrence of the term "One point two billion Muslims." A few years ago, I became used to the charge that in defending
Salman Rushdie, say, I had "offended a billion Muslims." Evidently, the number has gone up since I first heard this ridiculous complaint. But
observe the implied threat. There is not just safety in numbers, but danger in numbers. How many Danes or Jews or freethinkers are there? You can see what the "spokesmen" are insinuating by this tactic of mass psychology and mobbishness.

And not without immediate success, either. The preposterous person of Karen Hughes is quoted in the same New York Times article, under her risible title of "Under Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy." She tittered outside the
store she was happily giving away: "The voices of Muslim Americans have more credibility in the Muslim world frankly than my voice as a government
official, because they can speak the language of their faith and can share their experience of practicing their faith freely in the West, and they can help explain why the cartoons are so offensive." Well, let's concede that
almost any voice in any world has more credibility on any subject than this braying Bush-crony ignoramus, but is the State Department now saying that we shall be represented in the Muslim world only by Muslims? I think we need a debate on that, and also a vote. Meanwhile, not a dollar of Wahhabi money should be allowed to be spent on opening madrasahs in this country, or in
distributing fundamentalist revisions of the Quran in our prison system. Not until, at the very least, churches and synagogues and free-thought libraries are permitted in every country whose ambassador has bullied the Danes. If we have to accept this sickly babble about "respect," we must at least demand that it is fully reciprocal.

And there remains the question of Denmark: a small democracy, which resisted Hitler bravely and protected its Jews as well as itself. Denmark is a fellow member of NATO and a country that sends its soldiers to help in the defense and reconstruction of Iraq and Afghanistan. And what is its reward from Washington? Not a word of solidarity, but instead some creepy words of apology to those who have attacked its freedom, its trade, its citizens, and its embassies. For shame. Surely here is a case that can be taken up by
those who worry that America is too casual and arrogant with its allies. I feel terrible that I have taken so long to get around to this, but I wonder if anyone might feel like joining me in gathering outside the Danish Embassy
in Washington, in a quiet and composed manner, to affirm some elementary friendship. Those who like the idea might contact me at christopher.hitchens@yahoo.com, and those who live in other cities with Danish consulates might wish to initiate a stand for decency on their own
account.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby BigJon@Work » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:10 pm

I guess we presume that plucky, little Denmark can take care of itself.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:01 am

I must confess to disappointment at the President's rather lukewarm response to all this. I think I'm going to find a Danish flag pin and start wearing it
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby Serenity » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:43 am

Back ten centuries ago, the Pope decided that all the Muslims had to leave Jerusalem. Naturally there was a big uproar from the Muslim community. So the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate with a member of the Muslim community. If the Muslim won the debate, all the Muslims could stay. If the Pope won, all the Muslims would have to leave.
The Muslims looked around for a champion who could defend their faith, but no one wanted to volunteer. It was too risky. But they finally picked their representative, an old Mullah who unknowingly agreed without knowing what he was getting himself into. He agreed only on the condition that neither side be allowed to talk but communicate by miming. The pope agreed.

The day of the great debate came. The Mullah and the Pope sat opposite each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed three fingers. The Mullah looked back at him and raised his middle finger..

The Pope waved his fingers in a circle around his head. Mullah Nasruddin pointed to the ground and stamped his foot.

The Pope pulled out a wafer and a glass of wine. Mullah pulled out an apple. The Pope stood up and said, 'I give up. This man is too good. The Muslims can stay.'

An hour later, the cardials were all around the Pope asking him what happened. The Pope said: "First I held up three fingers to represent the Trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there was still one God common to both our religions. Then I waved my finger around me to show him that God was all around us. He responded by pointing to the ground and stamping on it, showing that God was also right here with us. I pulled out the wine and the wafer to show that God absolves us from our sins. He pulled out an apple, reminding me of the first sin. He had an answer for everything. What could I do?"

Meanwhile, the Muslim community had crowded around the Mullah in total astonishmen. "What happened?" they asked. "Well,"said the Mullah, "First he said to me that we Muslims had three days to leave Jerusalem. I told him up yours. Then he told me that this whole city would be cleared of Muslims. I said none of us leaving this land!"

"And then?" asked a woman.

"He took out his lunch and I took out mine," said the Mullah.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby haggis » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:36 pm

[url=http:////www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C03%5C02%5Cstory_2-3-2006_pg7_35]forbidden cartoons of Mohammadness[/url]

The forbidden cartoons of Mohammadness have been published more widely in Muslim countries than in Australia, New Zealand, and Canada combined. In Malaysia alone, three newspapers ran images – compared to just two newspapers in Australia.


Not a single major US daily went near them.

I reiterate, craven cowardice
Haggis

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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:05 pm

Originally posted by Haggis:


Not a single major US daily went near them.

I reiterate, craven cowardice
Yup.
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby BigJon@Work » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:41 am

If your employee's lives were threatened, wouldn't you think twice about publishing them?

<small>[ 03-03-2006, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: BigJon@Work ]</small>
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:22 pm

That's why its called cowardice. If anyone can be silenced by a threat then the threatener is in charge. The type of Islam that we are discussing here demand that you become just like them or they will kill you, no choice.

This type of Islam is a train heading for a wreck with Western Civilization, if the cartoons were the first shot, then guess what? American newspapers blinked and then caved in.

What's next? should the image of Mohammad be removed from the Supreme Court's frieze?

There is no negotiation here, only resistance or surrender. I know where I stand on that issue.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby DavidS » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:20 pm

One thing is clear from all these exchanges: The elements intent on trashing humanity (they are not worthy of being described as "religious") feel encouraged in facilitating Iran's obstinate insistence on developing military nuclear technology, as well as supporting the Hamasniks' point-blank refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist, remaining determined to keep committing craven acts of terror and murder.
Is the whole world going nuts?
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby dai bread » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:59 pm

Seems like it. NZ leaders are beginning to look like pillars of rectitude, but don't tell them I said that. Their opinion of themselves is high enough already. Maybe we don't have enough investigative journalists.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby DavidS » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:43 pm

Dai - don't be too trusting of "investigative journalists": I'm sure you are aware of the damage some of those muck-rakers can cause just to further their own interests without doing any real good...
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby dai bread » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:44 pm

True. They tend to "investigate" after the fact anyway.

Like their "investigations" of all those national leaders we lionised until they were thrown out, whereupon it was revealed that they'd robbed their countries blind. Marcos in the Phillippines & Haile Selassie in Ethiopia for instance. Not to mention S*dd*m.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby piqaboo » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:55 am

ratsnake, i think you have mis-read or misunderstood Haggis's posts, if you think he is a proponent of the action you deplore.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby DavidS » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:05 pm

Originally posted by barfle:
Originally posted by DavidS:
[b]Surely it's a matter of taste?
I mean eg James Joyce at the end of Ulysses got on great without such rules.
Or maybe a matter of clarity, which ought to be important when you're trying to get an idea across. [/b]
Oh yes - my take was that Joyce was deliberately scribbling down vague, possibly alcohol-induced, ramblings. I admit that I didn't read every "word" to the bitter end, but I think I got the idea.
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby barfle » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:49 pm

I've put off reading Ulysses until I have a free 10 days, which probably means I won't ever get through it. So I don't really know what you're referring to, although I can guess.

My point was that usually in these boards, we're trying to make a point, which is easier made if spelig iz krek n gramrz yoozul.

Hic!
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Re: what do we make fun of ?

Postby DavidS » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:14 pm

yor apserlootlee write!
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