Illegal Immigration

[Shapley]

GCR,

As our economy improves, the rate of illegal immigrants crossing the border increases. After a point, it becomes an issue, once again, to those who choose to ignore it the rest of the time.

A decade or more ago, we established reporting requirements for employers, which required that they verify the legality of the people they hire. The idea being that employers are easier to keep tabs on, and if the job market for illegal immigrants dries up, they will go elsewhere, or stay home. If large numbers of illegal immigrants are still coming here, then some employers are not fulfilling their verification requirements. That would be the easiest place to start cracking down.

Illegal immigrants receive social service benefits from our government, despite their unlawful status. Removing those would be another place to look. I'm not talking about letting them die in the streets, I'm talking about directing the funding to immigrant service providers, such as those provided for migrant farm workers. A basic level of care should be provided, no more. Hospitals and doctors offices would turn them away if they do not have the ability to pay or cannot prove legal status (i.e. health care eligability). Similarly, seperate schooling could be provided, as is done for migrant workers. Again, minimum standards met, no frills. There should be no Constitutional stumbling block, since as non-citizens lacking proper authority to be here, they are not covered by the same rights as citizens and legal immigrants.

I believe we have treaty requirements with Mexico that forbid the use of Armed Forces (i.e. military) patroling the border, but I could be misinformed there. we really don't need it, we just need to cut off the demand, and the supply will dry up.

V/R
Shapley

[Giant Communist Robot]

I've already answered your question as to the motive

Jeff, I looked through your posts and didn't see it. Are you sure?

[Giant Communist Robot]

Typical response

typical of what?

[Giant Communist Robot]

One could make the same argument about speeding, drunk driving, vandalism, rape and murder. You can't stop it, so get past it. That is not constructive, it is anarchy. Can you prove otherwise? Or is that the kind of society you want?

Well, that does it. Now I'm convinced.

[Giant Communist Robot]

Selma in Sandy Eggo stated:

We have illegal immigrant Chinese (significant population)

Really? Do you have some numbers? A quick google yielded a story where 15 were captured in San Diego.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I'm willing to converse, but I'm not up for a statistical analysis and legal debate. We do have immigration lawyers advertising in the yellow pages and on bus placards, and indicating that they will handle Chinese as well as a number of other ethnic group Immigration cases. Then there's the job ads for interpreters at hospital emergency rooms, schools, and such like.

[haggis]

"Here's another question for you to ponder. How would the Mexican government and people respond to a few hundred thousand people from poorer countries invading Mexico? "

Actually Mexico is very agressive in enforcing it own immigration laws on it's southern border including the use of deadly force. Most of the illegal immigrants coming into Mexico do so in order to cross into the U.S.

I guess they want to eliminate the possible competition

[OperaTenor]

FYI, while there are laws on the books regarding employers, they are not enforced. My experience with INS was they had no incentive, because the punishment was insignificant.

The punishment needs to be of deterrent significance for the laws to function.

[Giant Communist Robot]

We do have immigration lawyers advertising in the yellow pages and on bus placards, and indicating that they will handle Chinese

Lawyers, huh? That's good enough anecdotal evidence for me...

[analog]

The soulution is easy. The government should quit paying the legal fees of aliens. And immigration lawyers should be required to take in as houseguests, feed, clothe, and get the vaccinations up to date for aliens they represent.

Seriously, it is difficult to be hardnosed on this one. I was in junior high school in Miami when Castro took over Cuba. "Grapes of Wrath" changed my attitude toward the refugees. I guess the West coast gets Oriental folks instead of Caribbean.

However, any lifeboat can be swamped. I think we're going to see it soon in parts of Europe.

[jamiebk]

I'd be interested to know how many of you BB contributors are from California, Arizona, or any of the south border states. With all of the heavy farming in CA, there is no doubt that we would suffer without the migrant work force....but that's the key here...and frankly, the issue. It's not a MIGRANT workforce. People come here, work here, stay here, and send money to their home country. They do not return...they are not short term visitors here on legal work visas (what's wrong with a work visa system that allows people to come here for jobs?....that is the way it is supposed to work). Instead, people come here illegally and now demand citizenship. They use (demand) our resources, such as welfare, health system, schools, and want licenses to drive cars for which they do not provide insurance. I do not think that folks in the less affected parts of the country can understand the magnitude of the problem.

[OperaTenor]

I've spent 43 of my 45 years in Arizona and California, and have been keenly interested in illegal immigration since before it became a vogue issue.

WE'RE WAGGING THE DOG.

I've been outraged about the boondoggle of "border security" for most of my adult life. All of these checkpoints, fences and agents scurrying all over the countryside down here are nothing but a big, whopping, political grandstanding PLACEBO, made to give us the impression the government gives a rat's patoot about illegal immigration. They haven't cared for at least a generation, and it doesn't look like they're gonna start anytime soon. I even wonder if it's only about maintaining a source of cheap labor anymore.

If you really care about solving the problem, get on the phone or e-mail your elected representatives and get them to revive the McCain - Kennedy bill. Look it up - you'll be impressed with the comprehensive scope of the solution it offers. For one thing, I'd really like to see a meaningful improvement in our border security, first and foremost, and this bill is the only piece of legislation around that addresses that specifically.

Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act

An explanation of the bill.

We spend all this time verbally thrashing around this issue while the best answer is right under our noses.

It takes time and energy to learn about the situation and the ways to address it realistically. If you really care about it, then MAKE THE EFFORT.

[barfle]

I see several issues that require attention. The first one is "Why do we give a damn?" And, IMNSHO, we give a damn because we are told to. Supposedly, there are rules describing the proper methods of permanent entry into the US, and those who do not follow those rules are "illegal." Or so says the federal government.

However, I have it on good authority that the above-described federal government places very low priority on the subject of illegal immigration. My wife discovered obvious document forgery of a job applicant at a place she worked, and when she notified the INS about it, they did nothing. She did not hire the person, but kept seeing the same documentation from several other applicants over the course of her employment at the firm. So the provider of the rules has abdicated their obligation to enforce them. Big surprise there, right?

The second issue is "What's the problem?" Most illegal immigrants are poor, and poverty is often a causal factor in crimes of theft. So deal with the theft, the vagrancy, the panhandling, etc. as the crimes they are. But many illegals are hard workers who simply feel that there's an opportunity to improve their family's life by making minimum wage (or less) and sending the surplus home. There was an article in a recent Washington Post magazine about an illegal alien who didn't pay taxes because he didn't want to be found out, but it was OK because he didn't use any government services. Sorry, but that's just not possible. But his name and photo were published in the paper, the INS knows about him, and, again, the rule-makers abdicate their own responsibility to provide enforcement of the rules.

I'll admit I never tried to immigrate into the US, so I don't know what hoops may have to be jumped through, but I know that many of the people I work with are foreign-born, naturalized citizens, so if I really cared, I could find out. Whatever those hoops are, they didn't seem to keep out folks like Mohammed Attah, who has arguably done one of the more heinous crimes committed on US soil by a legal immigrant.

I spent well over forty years in Southern California, too, and I recognize the problem with vagrancy, but I also recognize the benefit of day laborers. But if the feds aren't going to enforce immigration laws, passing more laws won't help anything. I tend to feel that shooting them on sight isn't the right thing to do, but the existing attitude simply encourages disdain for the rule of law. I disagree with amnesty because it penalizes those who spent the effort to do things according to the rules, but I certainly can't envision the effort it would take to round 'em up and head 'em out, either.

[Shapley]

OT,

The 'guest worker' provision of McCain-Kennedy requires employers of guest workers to provide the same wages and conditions as are provided to citizen employees, and eliminates the allowance to hire them as contract labour. No doubt the labour unions will love this provision, but it is not consistent with the reason the 'guest workers' are hired in the first place.

In order for American producers to compete with foreign markets, the cost of labour must be kept low. The only other option is to raise the cost of imports through tariffs and other regulations, which would probably result in a trade war, and would definitely result in higher prices at the produce aisle.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are jobs that Americans are not willing to do at the wages they are worth.

V/R
Shapley

[Jeff Dutton]

Originally posted by Giant Communist Robot:

I've already answered your question as to the motive

Jeff, I looked through your posts and didn't see it. Are you sure?

Try reading the rest of the paragraph.

[Jeff Dutton]

Originally posted by Haggis:
"Here's another question for you to ponder. How would the Mexican government and people respond to a few hundred thousand people from poorer countries invading Mexico? "

Actually Mexico is very agressive in enforcing it own immigration laws on it's southern border including the use of deadly force. Most of the illegal immigrants coming into Mexico do so in order to cross into the U.S.

I guess they want to eliminate the possible competition

Hey, Haggis! You stole my thunder. :p I was going to follow up with a similar reference. This is a good link, though. Everyone should read it.

<small>[ 04-20-2006, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Dutton ]</small>

[Shapley]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192395,00.html

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by analog:
...And immigration lawyers should be required to take in as houseguests, feed, clothe, and get the vaccinations up to date for aliens they represent...

I like it. I've always thought that parole board members should be required to share their homes with parolees from prison, for their first few weeks of freedom. I'd bet that'd slow down recidivism.

[OperaTenor]

So Shap,

Your party's answer is to make illegal immigration a Federal crime?!!

Careful, your doubletalk is showing.....

[Shapley]

OT,

Are you suggesting that it is a State's issue now? Immigration has always been a Federal issue.

I am puzzled by your post.

V/R
Shapley