Illegal Immigration

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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:50 pm

jamiebk wrote:I wish someone could explain to me how this (a cap gun) can be considered a weapon. On this basis alone the arguement fails. Weapons cannot and should not be taken to school. The cap gun is not a weapon. I wish someone would sue their asses right out of their self righteous jobs.


Jamie the issue was lost last year or the year before when the kid with the G.I. Joe doll's miniature plastic gun was arrested for the same thing.

Asylum = inmates = management
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby piqaboo » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:10 pm

Criminey. I can imagine a teacher giving the kid a telling off*. But Juvenile Detention?
PuhLEASE!

* I often have to tell Altoid to avoid the perception of wrong-doing. As in, if it looks like you are doing what you arent supposed to, you're in trouble even if you are deliberately not doing the bad thing, by a millimeter.
So, in the paranoia of today, I could understand telling a kid he's a twit for bringing a toy gun to school,
then I'd make him pick it up from me before he went home for the day.

We keep trying to trade the illusion of security for very real freedoms - at the level of the gradeschool t-shirt/toys/affection, and at the level of the Patriot Act/carryon luggage/internet access.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Shapley » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:46 pm

The problem is simply that we do have very young children bring real weapons to school, and using them or threatening to use them. The police, therefore, have to assume the weapon is real until it is proven otherwise, just as they have to assume that a domestic disturbance is life-threatening until it can be proven otherwise. I do not fault the police. They had a report of a threat involving a firearm, and acted on it. Sadly, our cemeteries are filled with police officers who failed to recognize real threats.

My concern is the paranoia regarding guns that has brought us to this. On the one hand we teach that 'abstinence doesn't work', and yet we teach total abstinence with regards to firearms, things that look like firearms, and even using common items (such as a stick, ruler, or finger) while pretending it is a firearm. Playing "Cops and Robbers", "Cowboys and Native Americans", or "Militarist Invasion of Sovereign Nations" (which we used to call "War") is strickly taboo if it involves the use of anything that might resemble a firearm or represent the use of firearms.

The children on the bus apparently overreacted to the presence of the toy gun, assuming the boy is honest in his telling that he did not display the toy in a threatening manner. On the other hand, the boy could be lying. That possibility always exists.

V/R
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby jamiebk » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:42 pm

Shapley wrote: The police, therefore, have to assume the weapon is real until it is proven otherwise,


I agree, but once it is determined that it is a harmless toy, the child needs to have a good talking to about why it's a dumb idea to carry it. Then remanded to the parents' custody for futher educating...although in this case the parents seem complicit
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby analog » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:03 pm

I thought all toy guns nowadays have a prominent orange stripe on the barrel for just this reason.

Hysteria - isn't it one of the themes in "The Crucible" ?
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Shapley » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:10 pm

jamiebk wrote:....remanded to the parents' custody for futher educating...although in this case the parents seem complicit


Therein lies much of the problem. The police have become the bad guys, even though more often than not they are merely enforcing the letter of the law, even though they may not agree with the specific requirements thereof. If the law is wrong, take it out on the lawmakers, not the enforcers. Their livelihood and, in extreme cases, their freedom is at stake if they fail to enforce the law as written, even if it is written poorly.

Domestic violence laws are a case-in-point. Current law in many states (including, I believe, your home State of California) require that police make an arrest anytime they are called in on a domestic disturbance, even when there is no evidence of violence or threat thereof. Police are often apologetic as they make the arrest, pointing out that they have no alternative, but they are often reviled for it, nonetheless. Police frequently do not have the discretion to exercise judgement in such cases.

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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Shapley » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:20 pm

analog wrote:I thought all toy guns nowadays have a prominent orange stripe on the barrel for just this reason.


I believe most of them do, but I've seen a few of them around that do not. Paintball guns, while not really toys, do not seem to have them. I'm not sure what the actual requirement for the orange barrel tips is.

Besides, police figured out before the bill was passed that it wouldn't take much to put a piece of Orange tape on the barrel of a real firearm......
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby analog » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:03 am

Thanks- i didn't know about paintball guns...

Current law in many states (including, I believe, your home State of California) require that police make an arrest anytime they are called in on a domestic disturbance, even when there is no evidence of violence or threat thereof.


that's interesting - do you recall whether such an arrest would affect one's "instant background check" , or trigger a "yes" question on the yellow form????

a.
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Shapley » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:01 am

analog wrote:Thanks- i didn't know about paintball guns...


I tried to find a link on the law, but came up short in the time on hand. I did find an opinion piece that outlines the main point of the law. Guns that fire projectiles are excluded from the orange-tip provisions. I presume that, besides paintball guns, that includes those Star-Trek guns that shoot those litle plastic discs that resemble 45 RPM spindle inserts (assuming they still make those guns), as well as nerf guns.

that's interesting - do you recall whether such an arrest would affect one's "instant background check" , or trigger a "yes" question on the yellow form????


That I don't know. I'm not sure if they are required to be 'booked', or simply held in the manner they used to hold intoxicated persons, more as a safety measure than anything. Obviously, there has to be log of the arrest, but I think the background check restrictions only applies to those convicted of crimes. It's been a while since I've filled out a yellow form.
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Shapley » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:49 am

BTW,

Here is the STar Trek Gun I was referring to:

Image

We all used to have these things when I was growing up. My mother must have thrown out a bushel basketful of those little disks, which we would shoot all over the house. Those were the days......
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:03 am

Immigration to the US 1870-2007

This is dramatic.

[Sorry, I can't embed it for some reason.]
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby jamiebk » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:08 am

remarkable. I wonder what it looks like for other countries.
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby dai bread » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:53 pm

We'd be swamped in yellow dots from 1995 onwards.
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Serenity » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:04 pm

Can they add emigration? People had been so disgusted with the Clinton administration and later the Bush administration that many had promised to leave the country. I assume the brightest, richest and most successful citizens could leave. I wonder where they all went?
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Haggis@wk » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:49 pm

Serenity wrote:Can they add emigration? People had been so disgusted with the Clinton administration and later the Bush administration that many had promised to leave the country. I assume the brightest, richest and most successful citizens could leave. I wonder where they all went?


I saw a study that through the 80's less than 200,000 U.S. citizens a year emigrated out of the U.S. and many of those were naturalized Indian and Chinese citizens who returned to their home to avoid US. taxes. I'm too lazy tonight to google it.

Can't you imagine the Democrat commecials if there was any significant emigration problem? Face it, that's all hype we remain the number one destination for peole who want a better life on this planet.

As for the rest, they just moved to the left Coast; that's almost another country :rofl:
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Shapley » Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:52 pm

Serenity wrote:Can they add emigration? People had been so disgusted with the Clinton administration and later the Bush administration that many had promised to leave the country. I assume the brightest, richest and most successful citizens could leave. I wonder where they all went?


Alec Baldwin is still here, despite the promise to leave if President Bush won again in 2004. I believe Rush Limbaugh even offered to pay his airfare, but he stuck around.....
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby jamiebk » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:15 am

Haggis@wk wrote:As for the rest, they just moved to the left Coast; that's almost another country :rofl:


I thought so too when Bonnie and I first moved here. You get used to it. :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Haggis@wk » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:51 pm

Illegal aliens awarded $78,000 in damages against Arizona rancher who held them at gunpoint

How can a guy be liable for holding potentially dangerous trespassers on his property at gunpoint until the cops come?

A federal jury found Tuesday that a southern Arizona rancher didn’t violate the civil rights of a group of illegal immigrants who claimed that he detained them at gunpoint in 2004.

The eight-member civil jury also found Roger Barnett wasn’t liable on claims of battery and false imprisonment.

But the jury did find him liable on four claims of assault and four claims of infliction of emotional distress and ordered Barnett to pay $77,804 in damages — $60,000 of which were punitive.

Barnett declined to comment afterward, but one of his attorneys, David Hardy, said the plaintiffs lost on the bulk of their claims and that Barnett has a good basis for appeal on the two counts on which he lost.


I’m at a loss. All I can figure is that he somehow went above and beyond simply holding them. There was a dog involved. Maybe he gave them the Abu Ghraib treatment?

The tort of assault typically involves fear of bodily harm while infliction of emotional distress turns on “outrageous conduct”; threatening to have a snarling pitbull tear their arms off would arguably qualify on both counts, if in fact something like that happened, but is that really any worse than pointing a gun at them? Enlighten me, ambulance chasers.

Either way this is red meat to the legion of Americans who reject amnesty in any form. I suspect a fund has already been established to raise money for a appeal; heck, I'll contribute to it.
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby Haggis@wk » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:37 pm

Isn't the border fence "shovel ready"?
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Re: Illegal Immigration

Postby jamiebk » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:57 am

Yes...it is "Shovel Ready"...in fact the illegals are constantly digging tunnels underneath the fence to gain access to the US.
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