Illegal Immigration

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by Shapley:
OT,

Are you suggesting that it is a State's issue now? Immigration has always been a Federal issue.

I am puzzled by your post.

V/R
Shapley

Sure. I spout over Congress' failure to act on the McCain-Kennedy bill and you wonder where I stand?

No, what I'm talking about is your premise that the only way we can find people to do the jobs "nobody else is willing to do" is by having illegal immigrants around to be illegally underpaid(and let's not forget the tax contribution the employer skips out on while we're at it) for the job(s). Meanwhile the chief legislation your party proposes does nothing but overcrowd and overload our already overcrowded and overloaded criminal justice system with a bunch of poor schmucks who are simply trying to better their lives by getting into the land of opportunity any way they can.

Too much time drinking at the Faux News well...

[Shapley]

OT,

You misread me. I've already posted my view on how a 'guest worker' program would be implemented, and it would require employers to comply with the law, as is apparently attempting to be done by the link I posted earlier. However, 'guest workers' should not be entitled to the same benefits as citizens, a point I've also already posted, as it removes the incentive to bother with the citizenship process, or to return home when the work is done. It allows us to maintain an open border while implementing greater controls on the people who come through it, and allows us to regulate (and tax) those 'guest workers' who enter the country, without straining the economy by boosting prices or driving the cost of such employment up to the point that it is no longer economical to hire them.

BTW, last time I looked, McCain was still in my party. I've not stated any support for the current immigration bill, but I have supported the concept of a 'guest worker' provision.

V/R
Shapley

[shostakovich]

From Shap: "In order for American producers to compete with foreign markets, the cost of labour must be kept low. The only other option is to raise the cost of imports through tariffs and other regulations, which would probably result in a trade war, and would definitely result in higher prices at the produce aisle."

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I like "the cost of labour must be kept low". Unfortunately, this seems to be the unthinkable solution. In some thread I said this is exactly our problem. Our salaries and prices are too high. This causes outsourcing, bankruptcies, a trade deficit, and now we can add incentive for illegal immigration. I also proposed, semi-facetiously, that the government take the initiative, and reduce all government salaries (on a graduated percentage scale). This would be a starting point. After the initial dislocation has settled down (maybe 5-10 years), figure out the next step.

I'm appalled at free market athletes and those whose money is made from them. Salary caps could be imposed, or, alternatively, tax all the salary over $1 million at 100%. That could help pay the national debt till the sports world came to realize there would be no point in asking more than a million a year, which is a liveable wage. It would be a lot healthier for the sports, as well.

And, while I'm at it, a cap on gas gouging would be a good thing to see. However, our present administration has shown no interest in getting tough on illegal immigration or the oil companies --- unless you consider "Our nation is addicted to oil" as getting tough.
Shos

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by Shapley:
However, 'guest workers' should not be entitled to the same benefits as citizens, a point I've also already posted, as it removes the incentive to bother with the citizenship process, or to return home when the work is done.

BTW, last time I looked, McCain was still in my party. I've not stated any support for the current immigration bill, but I have supported the concept of a 'guest worker' provision.

V/R
Shapley

1) Do you really think creating a second class of serfs is the answer?

2) He may be in your party, but I don't see you lamenting the death of his bill. Instead, what you posted seems to directly support GWB's spew, which runs pretty much directly counter to what McCain-Kennedy proposed.

[Shapley]

Shos,

I don't think it's fair to single out the current administration as being unwilling to do anything about illegal immigration. President Bush is just carrying on a tradition that has been in place as long as I can remember.

As in the words of Judge Smells in Caddyshack: "The world needs ditch-diggers, too." However, while we may agree that ditches need to be dug, we don't want to pay $30 an hour to have it done. Thus, we turn our back while paying an illegal alien, or a contractor who hires an illegal alien, $5 an hour to dig the ditch.

Therein lies my problem with minimum wages, prevailing wages, etc., that artificially inflate the cost of doing business. Let us say that I want a ditch dug, and I'm willing to pay $200 to have it dug. A local contractor is willing to dig the ditch for $200. We should have a deal, right. Wrong. If the prevailing wage says that the cost of digging that ditch should be $350, then I have to pay $350 or not do the work. I don't think the ditch is worth $350, so I don't hire the work done. Thus I am without a ditch, the contractor is out of work, and the government is happy. Small wonder illegal aliens are able to find so much work.

V/R
Shapley

[Shapley]

OT,

Well, there you go again. Serfs aren't paid. Illegal aliens are coming here because they find work that pays. They are hired because they are willing to work at lower rates than American workers, if you can even find an American worker willing to do the work. Most of these illegal aliens work as contract labour, which makes the hiring of them as 'day labourers' simple. They can be hired for short term projects without the paperwork and mess required to put them on the payroll, lay them off when the work runs out, etc.

McCain-Kennedy would prohibit hiring them as contract labour, and thus would drive up the cost of hiring them. The result would be that they wouldn't get hired or the cost of the product they produce would skyrocket.

V/R
Shapley

[Shapley]

<small>[ 04-20-2006, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>

[Giant Communist Robot]

it is to protect the financial interest of the legal citizens and residents of our country

So its all about the money. This is trivial compared to some other financial problems we have. What does it come to, a couple of contracts for Halliburton?

If your concern is all about the money you go for the big issues, not some small one. I don't think your concern is about the money, Jeff.

[Giant Communist Robot]

Shapley posted:

I don't think it's fair to single out the current administration as being unwilling to do anything about illegal immigration. President Bush is just carrying on

and I agree. On the "radar of important issues" this doesn't show up at all. It's a non-issue. Bush has his hands full with problems that are truly serious. I'm not saying Bush is doing a good job, but at least he hasn't lost his focus on what's important.

[Giant Communist Robot]

May you live in interesting times.

Hey! Look! Shapley is cursing us again!

[Jeff Dutton]

Originally posted by Giant Communist Robot:

it is to protect the financial interest of the legal citizens and residents of our country

So its all about the money. This is trivial compared to some other financial problems we have. What does it come to, a couple of contracts for Halliburton?

If your concern is all about the money you go for the big issues, not some small one. I don't think your concern is about the money, Jeff.

Ok. What is my concern, in your opinion? And please be specific in explaining how my statements have led you to that conclusion.

[OperaTenor]

Hey Shap, where do you suppose the basis for calculating the minimum wage comes from?

[Shapley]

OT,

The theoretical basis for the minimum wage is the minimum 'living wage' at which a person can be self-sustaining. However, that wage represents a 'living wage' at U.S. standard-of-living values, not Mexican, Chinese, or Caribbean standard-of-living values.

The wage itself is not the issue, since it is only part of the cost of employment. McCain-Kennedy requires that the 'guest workers' be hired as payroll employees rather than contract workers, and thus become elegible for full benefits - Insurance, Retirement, union representation - as well as paying into to Social Security, Medicare, etc. Ideally, these workers, being non-citizens, are ineligible for both Social Security and Medicare. However, It is virtually guaranteed that, since they would have paid into the program, it would be only a matter of time before the courts rule that they are eligible for full benefits, particularly since McCain-Kennedy mandates that they are afforded the benefits of full employment status.

Illegal immigrants find work here because they are willing to work at a lower cost to the employer than their American counterparts. What is needed is a way to document and regulate this workforce. McCain-Kennedy will only drive it deeper underground. I don't think you are naive enought to believe that employers will begin to hire temporary-foreign workers at the same wages and benefits the law mandates for citizen employees. I'm sure you don't believe that the crews riding around in trailers mowing lawns and weed-eating are going to find themselves at full pay and benefits if the bill passes. I know you don't believe that all the rich legislators will suddenly start paying their nannies full pay and benefits. I don't know about the other aspects of the bill, but this provision should be enough to kill it, and hopefully it has.

We don't need to stop the influx of workers looking to put food in their bellies and on the tables of their families. We need to find a way to document them, regulate them, and tax their wages.

V/R
Shapley

[shostakovich]

From Shap:
"Shos,

I don't think it's fair to single out the current administration as being unwilling to do anything about illegal immigration. President Bush is just carrying on a tradition that has been in place as long as I can remember."

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I have no intention of singling out Bush for this ongoing problem. But he is the occupant of the White House now, and we are addressing problems in the now. Certainly, illegal immigration has been a long-standing problem, as has the too high wage and price cycle.

I'll even mention another long-standing problem that has not been addressed --- and won't be any time soon. That's overpopulation. Humans consume and pollute. If sensible birth control doesn't stem the growth of population, nuclear nutcakes will do it the hard way. It may be more imminent than we can (or allow ourselves) to imagine.
Shos the Cynic

[Shapley]

Shos,

You're talking to a Catholic. Overpopulation is not a problem, it's a mandate.

V/R
Shapley

[Serenity]

The US border with Mexico should be declared a hunting zone. Any citizen willing to capture people sneaking across the border and submit them to authorities would receive some sort of government benefit for every person submitted, e.g. bonds, tax exemptions, other monetary incentives. People caught would be given the choice of being deported to their country of origin or be assigned to serve American interests in foreign soil in exchange for earning time towards citizenship or be assigned to "approved jobs" to earn time toward citizenship. They can also be given the choice of serving in the military to "speed up" citizenship. If someone living in the US is caught living here illegally, and have children who were born here, they would be deported along with their illegally-born children, who would be stripped of their US citizenship and the medical bills of the childbirth would be added or subtracted from the accounting with the country involved. The "government approved jobs" would still equal the "shit jobs" they would be willing to do anyway, except that now they would be "in the system" doing the jobs that Americans do not want to do at reduced wages and benefits but with the hope of earning points toward that green card. It would be an "agreed-upon" work relationship; they could always choose to opt out and get shipped back without losing their "points" unless a specific amount of time has passed that merits their expiration.

[OperaTenor]

Hey! The lurker comes to the surface! :p

Serenity, como esta frijole? (How you bean?)

Your solution sounds kinda like the French Foreign Legion.

[BigJon@Work]

Originally posted by shostakovich:
I'll even mention another long-standing problem that has not been addressed --- and won't be any time soon. That's overpopulation. Humans consume and pollute. If sensible birth control doesn't stem the growth of population, nuclear nutcakes will do it the hard way. It may be more imminent than we can (or allow ourselves) to imagine.

More leftest claptrap designed to get the government more involved with our lives.

Remember, the solution to overpopulation start with you.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Serenity, I'm willing to consider all but one of your ideas food for discussion. The point about stripping citizenship from people born here in the U.S is bad, wrong, and I don't like it. It's also unconstitutional. Anybody born in the U.S. is a citizen. Making conditions, and exceptions, and waffling on the absolute is something up with which I will not put.

I also have a few doubts about the wisdom of entrepreneurial bounty hunting at the borders.

[Serenity]

OK Selma, I admit that was a bit drastic but it was just a thought about countering the fact that aliens have babies here and use it as an excuse to stay.

I thought the bounty hunting was a "fun" idea; kind of like playing paintball but maybe with tranquilizing darts or ingenious traps like the ones used by Wiley Coyote. Or like fishing or hunting for sport but then putting the fish back or relocating the animal.

I thought my idea would get bashed. Did you like the idea of having them serve American interests abroad before earning their stay here?

<small>[ 04-21-2006, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Serenity ]</small>