Healthy economy equals quiet bulletin board

[Haggis@wk]

High-speed rail link ‘could wreck climate

” A NEW high-speed rail link between Scotland and England could help wreck the climate, not save it, as it would increase pollution by encouraging more people to travel.
A major report to be unveiled tomorrow challenges the growing green assumption that a regular 186mph train service from Glasgow and Edinburgh to London would benefit the environment.”

Well, you knew it was only a matter of time before the goofy greens turned on mass transit. I think those who are profoundly worried about the climate should find a cave to live in just to put the rest of us in our place. That'll show us!!

[Haggis@wk]

Getting back to the subject of this thread I was shocked to learn that the DOW hit another record high on Friday

Haven't these people heard that we're in a recession? All the Democrats are saying so!

[Shapley]

I think the Democrat line now is that, due to inflation, etc., the Dow has to reach something like 13,600 before it is at the same level as it was during the Clinton administration, thus the economy isn't as strong now as it appears, despite the new record set by the DJIA, record tax receipts by the government, and a 4.6 percent unemployment rate.

[BigJon]

I believe the fossil fuel consumption must be exacerbating global warming, at least. But, whether or not it does, it pollutes the air we breathe. That's reason enough to cut back on such emissions.

Logging and urban sprawl eliminate trees and other plants, our symbiotic friends that soak up CO2. 'Nother exacerbation.

Glad you got your head screwed on straight on emissions, Shos.

You are wrong about the logging industry though. They are net atmospheric carbon users. I can't help you on continued development, I don't know if anyone has done good studies on it. I suspect the contribution from altered landscaping is miniscule.

[shostakovich]

"Net atmospheric carbon users"?? Whazzat mean?

So the stock market reached an all-time high! Whoopee. If you are not in the market with the right stocks, the "economy" is not doing you any favors.

The stock market is not "the economy", just an indicator for the privileged.

Since the rich get richer, while we ALL share the national debt, the "good economy" is skewed and temporary. It's not as good as it looks.

Gas is down, stock market up just before the election. Hmmmmm. I think they are both being manipulated.

I'm going out on a limb, and predicting gas prices will be rising before Christmas. If the Dems do get majorities in November, there will be a lot of profit-taking during that week, a market drop, and blame the Dems. If the Reps maintain their majorities, the profit-taking and fall will be more gradual.

And, oh, yes, unemployment numbers will rise.
Doomsday Shos

[GreatCarouser]

"Net atmospheric carbon users"?? Whazzat mean?

It's a proactive plan to control them,of course!

[dai bread]

What do you people think of "food miles"?

It's a concept that insists it's better to buy expensive European food because it doesn't get freighted half-way round the world like the cheap stuff available from us. We see it as yet another defensive effort by the heavily-subsidised French farmers, who will lose a lot if EU subsidies are ever reduced.

The idea applies to Aussies, South Americans and Africans too, of course, not to mention Canadian wheat farmers.

[BigJon]

"Net atmospheric carbon users"?? Whazzat mean?

It means the net result of the logging industry's activities suck carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, thus lowering the total concentration. This is because they concentrate their work on farming young, rapidly growing tree varieties that use more carbon than the carbon recycling lost by cutting down older trees. Mature trees do very little for changing the balance of carbon in the atmosphere anyway. Their output of carbon dioxide almost matches their intake.

So the stock market reached an all-time high! Whoopee. If you are not in the market with the right stocks, the "economy" is not doing you any favors.

The stock market is not "the economy", just an indicator for the privileged.

Since the rich get richer, while we ALL share the national debt, the "good economy" is skewed and temporary. It's not as good as it looks.

It's not hard at all to participate in the stock market and get those gains for yourself. No "privilege" required, and that 0.19% expense ratio means you get to keep almost all of it yourself. None of it goes to "Wall Street"

[Haggis@wk]

Budget Deficit Drops to $250 Billion

Shos, you are a perfect example of what Shapley and I have been saying. The MSM is so skewed trying to portray bad news where there is none so much that now you believe it.

The truth is this, GDP growth is strong, productivity is way up, unemployment is historically low, family incomes are rising, inflation is down, the stock market is up, and the federal deficit is down, and because of the tax cuts, U.S. tax revenues are at an all time high

Of course you despise this president so much you were already inclined to believe it despite the fact that we’re are richer today than at any time in U.S. history.

But, I can cheer you up some. If Nancy Pelosi becomes speaker of the house she’s already said that the tax cuts will be reversed and taxes will be raised.

Oh, and since she plans to raise the minimum wage in the first 100 hours after she becomes speaker I can guarantee that your prediction that unemployment will rise will come true; it has every time.

There, don’t you feel better?

[Haggis@wk]

Need an example of skewed economic news?

Consumers Cut Back Spending in August

” Battered consumers, faced with weak income growth and rising inflation, trimmed their spending in August by the largest amount in nearly a year. The Commerce Department reported Friday that consumer spending, after adjusting for inflation, dropped by 0.1 percent last month, the first decline since a 0.3 percent fall in September 2005, a month when business activity was disrupted by Hurricane Katrina.”

All this for a decline of 1/1,000th!

But cheer up, as soon as the Dems are in charge all news will be great!!!

[Haggis@wk]

ANOTHER GRIM MILESTONE:

"The Dow Jones industrial average swept past 12,000 for the first time Wednesday, extending its march into record territory as investors grow increasingly optimistic about corporate earnings and the economy."

[shostakovich]

"Net atmospheric carbon users"?? Whazzat mean?

It means the net result of the logging industry's activities suck carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, thus lowering the total concentration. This is because they concentrate their work on farming young, rapidly growing tree varieties that use more carbon than the carbon recycling lost by cutting down older trees. Mature trees do very little for changing the balance of carbon in the atmosphere anyway. Their output of carbon dioxide almost matches their intake.

So the stock market reached an all-time high! Whoopee. If you are not in the market with the right stocks, the "economy" is not doing you any favors.

The stock market is not "the economy", just an indicator for the privileged.

Since the rich get richer, while we ALL share the national debt, the "good economy" is skewed and temporary. It's not as good as it looks.

It's not hard at all to participate in the stock market and get those gains for yourself. No "privilege" required, and that 0.19% expense ratio means you get to keep almost all of it yourself. None of it goes to "Wall Street"

I recall in school (general biology) that trees and plants restore oxygen and absorb CO2. I'm unaware of trees and plants putting out CO2.

I was referring to the privilege of having enough money to invest in the stock market. I'm not privileged, and I'm far from alone, although most of my colleagues ARE privileged. I suspect most members of the BBB are also. Still, some of them seem to be aware of the "unprivileged", and recognize a need for some government relief.
Shos

[shostakovich]

Budget Deficit Drops to $250 Billion

Shos, you are a perfect example of what Shapley and I have been saying. The MSM is so skewed trying to portray bad news where there is none so much that now you believe it.

The truth is this, GDP growth is strong, productivity is way up, unemployment is historically low, family incomes are rising, inflation is down, the stock market is up, and the federal deficit is down, and because of the tax cuts, U.S. tax revenues are at an all time high

Of course you despise this president so much you were already inclined to believe it despite the fact that we’re are richer today than at any time in U.S. history.

But, I can cheer you up some. If Nancy Pelosi becomes speaker of the house she’s already said that the tax cuts will be reversed and taxes will be raised.

Oh, and since she plans to raise the minimum wage in the first 100 hours after she becomes speaker I can guarantee that your prediction that unemployment will rise will come true; it has every time.

There, don’t you feel better?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Shos, you are a perfect example of what Shapley and I have been saying. The MSM is so skewed trying to portray bad news where there is none so much that now you believe it."

I'm not basing my feelings about the national debt on MSM news. It's just that being in debt is abhorrent to me. I don't think the government should be adding ANYTHING to the debt, especially if "we" are so damned rich.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The truth is this, GDP growth is strong, productivity is way up, unemployment is historically low, family incomes are rising, inflation is down, the stock market is up, and the federal deficit is down, and because of the tax cuts, U.S. tax revenues are at an all time high "

So how come there is any deficit at all?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Of course you despise this president so much you were already inclined to believe it despite the fact that we’re are richer today than at any time in U.S. history."

I despise the president for the Iraq war and his coddling of corporations at the expense of addressing poverty --- and, in fact, exacerbating it. Maybe you are richer today than at any time in the past, but I'm definitely not. As I mentioned before, I'm not alone. Who lobbies for the poor? I don't consider myself "poor" yet, but I'm far from "comfortable", and my situation is getting worse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But, I can cheer you up some. If Nancy Pelosi becomes speaker of the house she’s already said that the tax cuts will be reversed and taxes will be raised.

Oh, and since she plans to raise the minimum wage in the first 100 hours after she becomes speaker I can guarantee that your prediction that unemployment will rise will come true; it has every time."

I was and am against the tax cuts, so "Go, Nancy, go!". So, yes, I will feel better if she becomes speaker.

As for the raising of the minimum wage, you may recall I was (foolishly) proposing REDUCING salaries, starting with government employees. Yeah, yeah, I know the odds against Congress voting themselves a salary cut. But prices and salaries in this country are way out of whack with most countries. Lowering them would slow outsourcing and immigration --- two of our big problems.
Shos

[BigJon]

I recall in school (general biology) that trees and plants restore oxygen and absorb CO2. I'm unaware of trees and plants putting out CO2.

See http://ecosys.cfl.scf.rncan.gc.ca/dynamic/carbon_e.htm

A growing forest is a carbon sink; in other words, it fixes more carbon through photosynthesis than the amount it releases via respiration. When the forest reaches maturity, an equilibrium is created between the quantity of carbon fixed and the amount released.

All plants take in CO2 and convert it to cellular material through photosynthesis. As part of maintaining the life of the plant, they also "exhale" CO2, typically at night when no photosynthesis is taking place. As trees mature, the "exhaled" CO2 nearly equals the "inhaled" quantities. Knowing that plants exhale CO2 to sustain cellular function, this balance becomes intuitive. A tree that is rapidly growing must take in huge quantities of gaseous CO2 and convert it to solid carbon forms. Think about how many CO2 molecules are required to make the mass in one board foot of lumber and how rapidly cell material is added to a young tree. As a tree matures, the ratio of new growth cells to existing living cells begins to even out and the rate of growth starts to slow, so the carbon taken in for new growth begins to approach the level of carbon exhaled to sustain existing tissue. It would be counterproductive for a tree to ever reverse the ratio, as the tree would need to begin to "eat" itself to sustain itself. Not a recipe for evolutionary success. So a balanced cycle is the upper limit for trees.

The logging industry harvests primarily farmed trees. The industry plants only the fastest growing tree varieties and harvests them young, as trees go. Thus they never get close to that CO2 balance stage of life. Since most of the logging industry's output is not burned, the harvested trees soak up a lot of atmospheric CO2 and store it in a semi-permanent solid. Therefore the industry creates a net benefit by reducing atmospheric carbon levels.

I was referring to the privilege of having enough money to invest in the stock market. I'm not privileged, and I'm far from alone, although most of my colleagues ARE privileged. I suspect most members of the BBB are also. Still, some of them seem to be aware of the "unprivileged", and recognize a need for some government relief.

If you use the fund I listed, the bar is set pretty low for the "privilege" of getting the returns of the stock market. It is within reach of almost every working adult in the U.S. What relief from the stock market are you seeking?

[shostakovich]

Hi BigJon. I am not looking for relief to come from the stock market, but rather from the government. Medicare D MIGHT have done a better job of it, but first looked after insurance and pharmaceutical companies. Medication costs are killing us. Wage and price controls could help us peasants, but I'm not holding my breath. My wife and I have NO cash with which to enter the stock market at any level, but thanks for the suggestion. It was nice of you.

As for the carbon cycle, my school books of 55 years ago had a simpler cycle. I have trouble following the article, as it uses both "carbon" and "CO2" sometimes as if they were the same (to my limited comprehension). Call me "paranoid", but the claim that a forest can ever be neutral in terms of CO2 (amount consumed = amount produced) strikes me as a "Republican plot" to justify logging. I'm only half kidding.

At any stage a forest is home to animals, fish, fowl, and insects. I don't like the concept of "eminent domain" depriving them, either. Humans are openly willing to control populations of everything but humans. [There's lots of population control going on in Darfur, Iraq, and other places. How can "war" be such an acceptable word, but "population control" makes so many flinch?] Allow the beasts of the world to exist. There are plenty of human problems to hold our attention. Our education system may be the biggest.
Shos, starting to ramble

[barfle]

As for the carbon cycle, my school books of 55 years ago had a simpler cycle. I have trouble following the article, as it uses both "carbon" and "CO2" sometimes as if they were the same (to my limited comprehension). Call me "paranoid", but the claim that a forest can ever be neutral in terms of CO2 (amount consumed = amount produced) strikes me as a "Republican plot" to justify logging. I'm only half kidding.

At any stage a forest is home to animals, fish, fowl, and insects. I don't like the concept of "eminent domain" depriving them, either. Humans are openly willing to control populations of everything but humans. [There's lots of population control going on in Darfur, Iraq, and other places. How can "war" be such an acceptable word, but "population control" makes so many flinch?] Allow the beasts of the world to exist. There are plenty of human problems to hold our attention. Our education system may be the biggest.
Shos, starting to ramble

Carbon in the atmosphere is almost always carbon dioxide, or CO2, which is known as a "greenhouse gas." A growing tree tends to concentrate carbon in itself, mostly as an element of the wood that makes it up. Animals in the forest breathe in oxygen, combine it with the carbon from their food (a process called "metabolism") and exhale carbon dioxide. Naturally, a fire oxidizes the carbon in the plants (and animals).

When it comes to the concept of eminent domain, I'm against it for many reasons, most of which have to do with the constitutionality of forcing the sale of your property at a price you may not feel is worth it. However, it has been used to create many places like parks (check out the history of Shenandoah NP) and preserve wild spaces, as well as to take homes so someone can build a parking lot for their Wal-Mart.

[dai bread]

I see there are now 300 million Americans. Now wonder the U.S. economy is doing well. It's the only major developed nation showing positive growth in population via birthrate as well as immigration.

[Shapley]

Actually, I think the 'population clock' is a little fast. I counted them the other day and still found us a couple thousand short. Then again, I may have missed a few homeless people sleeping under the overpasses.

[Shapley]

The DOW closed over 12,000 yesterday, and the board has been quieter than usual today. I would say the title of this thread is correct.

[Shapley]

The DOW remains above 12,000, and the board is quieter than I've known it to be since the holidays.

I guess everyone is out spending their dividends....