Honor Society

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Postby Shapley » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:06 pm

Literacy Council wants to change the way wurdz are speld

I think this ties in nicely with our previous discussion.
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Postby barfle » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:51 pm

I must admit, the simplified spelling was harder to read. no dowt beekawz of unfamlyarity with th look uv it al.

:roll:

I remember a newspaper back in California always spelling "employee" without the last "e," but I believe they eventually realized they weren't helping people read their paper.

Having been a reader for half a century, I find that, as I read, I don't sound out the words, I simply recognize and understand them. That "simplified" spelling didn't let me do that.
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Postby jamiebk » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:55 pm

Oh....I get it! We're supposed to change our entire language so that a few people who do not care enough to learn to spell won't have to worry about that. Yeah...that makes sense to me...NOT :?
Jamie

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Postby barfle » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:05 pm

I'm far from saying that the way we spell has any basis in lojuk. A lot of it is simply historical, altho I'm not sure how one pronounced "knight" in a phonetic language.

Then there's the old joke about "fish" being spelled "ghoti." GH as in rough, O as in women, and TI as in action.
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Postby Shapley » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:07 pm

I'm not sure the simplified spelling was all that simple. Why change take to taek, and not simply tak, or if you would prefer, tāk.

Another problem with phonetic spelling is that we don't all pronounce words the same way. your use of the word unfamlyarity was foreign to me, because I pronounce it un-fam-il-ee-air-it-ee.

I posted a while back, I believe it was in the coffee shop thread, about Moitessier's observations on Chinese pictographs and how they were used to allow people that spoke entirely different languages such as Japanese and Kochin, to communicate with each other. His observation was that the French brought to the Indochinese a written language, using symbols to represent the varieties of sounds they make. It was a great accomplishment, he points out, to be able to write out the word house and have it mean the same thing as saying the word "house". But it is entirely meaningless if the person you are communicating with calls a house a 'domo'. With pictographs, the symbols represent ideas rather than sounds, and thus a pictograph of a house means a house, regradless of what you call it.

V/R
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Postby Shapley » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:10 pm

barfle wrote:Then there's the old joke about "fish" being spelled "ghoti." GH as in rough, O as in women, and TI as in action.


Yes, but a ghoti by any other name would still smell as bad.
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Postby BigJon@Work » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:25 am

U.S. spelling conundrums to be solved before we go phonetic.
Wash or warsh?
creek or crick?
nuclear of nucular? :D

By the way why isn't Phonetic spelled phonetically?
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Postby Shapley » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:44 am

I"ve posted this before, but I'll post it hear, because it will help me on my weigh to my fore thousandth post. :D

Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.

Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.

Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.

Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.

Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.

Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.

Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.

Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.

Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.

Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.

Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.

Finally, which rhymes with enough --
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give up!!!

-- Author Unknown --
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Postby Nicole Marie » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:15 pm

Nice post Shapley! I'll have to memorize the poem... pretty neat!

I'm with jamiebk on this... America is becoming such a lazy country. Parents should read more to their children.
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Postby Shapley » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:28 pm

Thanks, Nicole. I like that poem as well.

I agree that we are getting lazy. I actually think the varieties of spelling are part of what give our language character. I have a distaste for modern cultures' fascination with the letters 'X' and 'Z', as in Xtreme, Xellent, Boyz and Toyz.

V/R
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:25 pm

Nicole Marie wrote:... America is becoming such a lazy country...

Nonsense. We've always been lazy. Laziness is the muse of engineers, everywhere, as she leads them into vast new realms of invention. (Alternate spelling for "lazy" - e-f-f-i-c-i-e-n-t)
Nicole Marie wrote:...Parents should read more to their children.

Well, OK, but it's hard to corral them at this stage. Does it help that they're all already compulsive readers? It's genetic.
>^..^<
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Postby shostakovich » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:33 pm

I recently came across the origin of the word "phonetics"/ "phoenetics". It seems that the ancient Phoenecians were the first to create symbols for individual sounds. It caught on.
Shos
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Postby BigJon@Work » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:43 pm

Getting back to the original topic. I was reading the Cal Thomas column about the West’s language problem. Typical right wing stuff about responding in strength to provocation, if you don’t want to read it. It got me to thinking of my honor society studies about how the honor cultures are so far removed from our U.S. experience that we can’t understand them or approach them with diplomacy and reason. Here’s my thought. What if the CIA got it right in the 70s? It’s barbaric, but there were several plans and plots by the CIA to kill leaders of various groups. Perhaps they studied these honor cultures and learned that by beheading the tribe, they gained the respect of the group and the next leader/warlord would behave more circumspectly regarding the U.S. interests. Thoughts?
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Postby BenODen » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:32 pm

I suspect it's out of the fear of encouraging that kind of behvior internally or externally that we gave up that policy officially.

It kind of makes a mockery of government. If there's a democratically elected government, and it's acceptable to assassinate leaders, you risk creating constant churn/coup when there's even a minority that doesn't approve of the current government. Using it as a plank in the foreign policy platform also creates a hipocracy if it's not acceptable in a country's domestic policy.

There's also a huge question whether the hatred or the fear grows stronger with this kind of tactic. I kinda think it promotes hate among the supporters of that faction.

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Postby Shapley » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:05 pm

I think they're more concerned about the effects of a failed assassination attempt than a successful one. The prohibition was put in place after the Bay of Pigs.
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