The war on terrorism

[Shapley]

Thanks. But I'm ashamed to note that I misspelled 'cowardice'.

[jamiebk]

It's the thought that counts...(I could go back and edit the error so no one will know)

[Shapley]

Thanks, but I'm content to leave it be.


The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

-- Omar Khayyam

[that being said, I did edit my original post, just in case anyone quotes it again.]

[barfle]

One knows within his/her heart what one believes in. So what if you mutter a few insincere words to gain release? Lie about it...what does it matter? Renounce the hell out of it when you get home. People will understand the circumstances and will forgive. It sounds so honorable to die for one's "religion", but I do not see the point to martyring oneself in this case.

Unfortunately, there are sects in Islam that feel it's their duty to punish those Moslems who have left the faith. One can hope this is not going to apply, but if I were one of those journalists, I would be very afraid. Especially since this case has a very high profile.

[analog]

...cool quote, Shap...

http://www.arabiannights.org/rubaiyat/index2.html

[Shapley]

Thanks for the link. I love that poem, but was not familiar with the Winfield edition.

I'll have to look over the site when I have more time to spare.

The Rubaiyat is full of excellent quotes, one of my favourite:

And much as Wine has play'd the Infidel,
And robb'd me of my Robe of Honor--Well,
I wonder often what the Vintners buy
One half so precious as the stuff they sell.

V/R
Shapley

[analog]

I'll have to look over the site when I have more time to spare.

The Rubaiyat is full of excellent quotes, one of my favourite:..............

I hadn't thought about it in a long time.


The world could use some lightening up about now....


54 Waste not your Hour, nor in the vain pursuit
Of This and That endeavor and dispute;
Better be jocund with the fruitful Grape
Than sadden after none, or bitter, Fruit.

55 You know, my Friends, with what a brave Carouse
I made a Second Marriage in my house;
Divorced old barren Reason from my Bed,
And took the Daughter of the Vine to Spouse.

56 For Is and Is-not though with Rule and Line
And UP-AND-DOWN by Logic I define,
Of all that one should care to fathom, I
was never deep in anything but--Wine.

He sounds like a recovering intellectual...... nine hundred years before his time.

[Shapley]

Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss'd
Of the Two Worlds so wisely--they are thrust
Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn
Are scatter'd, and their Mouths are stopt with Dust.

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same door where in I went.

With them the seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with mine own hand wrought to make it grow;
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd--
I came like Water, and like Wind I go.

Into this Universe, and Why not knowing
Nor Whence, like Water willy-nilly flowing;
And out of it, as Wind along the Waste,
I know not Whither, willy-nilly blowing.

What, without asking, hither hurried Whence?
And, without asking, Whither hurried hence!
Oh, many a Cup of this forbidden Wine
Must drown the memory of that insolence!

Yep, I'd say you have him nailed!

[jamiebk]

According to the news, we will need to change the title of this topic to:

"The war on Islamic Fascism" http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/ ... 5505.shtml

[Haggis@wk]

KATHA POLLITT ”PUT OUT NO FLAGS"

” My daughter, who goes to Stuyvesant High School only blocks from the World Trade Center, thinks we should fly an American flag out our window. Definitely not, I say: The flag stands for jingoism and vengeance and war.”

“A friend has taken to wearing her rusty old women's Pentagon Action buttons--at least they have a picture of the globe on them. The globe, not the flag, is the symbol that's wanted now. “

[snide remark]Yeah, her opinions really resonant with me……[/snide remark]

[bignaf]

[piqaboo]

Yikes!
There are many parts of the globe who's example I do not care to follow, thank you very much.

[GreatCarouser]

Rumsfeld likens Bush critics to Nazi appeasers.

By comparing U.S. foreign policy with World War II and the Cold War, Rumsfeld sought to portray skeptics of Bush's foreign policy as being on the wrong side of history. Rumsfeld again ridiculed U.S. officials who, before World War II, wished to negotiate with Adolf Hitler.

"I recount that history because, once again, we face similar challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism," Rumsfeld said. "But some seem not to have learned history's lessons."

He continued: "Can we truly afford to believe that, somehow or some way, vicious extremists could be appeased?"

His use of the word "appease" was particularly notable, clearly tying administration critics to the failed efforts of the pre-Churchill British government to mollify Hitler.

What was that quote about the first to refer to Hitler et al, Haggis?

I have some somewhat random thoughts...

Negotiation isn't a synonym for appeasement.

I agree that our real enemy is fascist. I dislike linking the word fascist with 'Islamic' because that adjective while descriptive of our real enemy tends to blur the distinction between those Muslims who are fascists and those who are anything but.

My first question for Mssrs Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al is who exactly are we at war with? Are we at war with Islam? Are we at war with Iran? With Syria? It's tough to land a punch when you don't know who the target is. I look at the map trying to locate the 'Axis of Evil' and I just can't find it. If we are going to fight a war wouldn't it help to know who to hit? Wouldn't that also help us to know when we had won?

I also can't find a place called 'Al Qaueda'. I know we are at war with them but just don't see where to drop the bomb. I know they're out there but they've hidden themselves well. They also seem to have some support from the people in some areas. We have offered the largest reward ever posted for Osama bin Laden in one of the poorest areas on earth and yet we have no takers.

Perhaps in spite of our money and our willingness to bestow/impose the gift of democracy on them they just don't like or understand us and have no use for any religious/political philosophy they don't choose for themselves? What a concept! While I don't feel people who choose to live under systems of government that don't allow the governed any voice in the governing process are making the right choice (assuming they have one) I do respect their right to choose not to do so. I think what most folks want is enough food, a safe place to live, and not to be dodging bombs/bullets.

America's system of government evolved from a British model. That model was built on the blood of many Britishers. Giving a voice to the governed in their governing was a concept fertilized with blood and years of trial. It was nourished by Western European thoughts and ideas. It arose after stewing in a cultural pot for many generations.

The rest of the world managed to get along without those ideas taking hold. They may not be 'ready' in a cultural sense to incorporate them. Even if they are a whole cultural infrastructure must be destroyed in order for the new one to grow. The best comparison I can think of here is removing the legality of slavery in this country. Look at the turmoil and the cost. We still feel the ripple effects today.

I have other questions/thoughts as well. Perhaps in another post I'll touch on some of those. I wonder if anyone else saw the National Geographic Channel specials on 9/11 and Osama last night? Both were very interesting and informative.

[Shapley]

What was that quote about the first to refer to Hitler et al, Haggis?

I hardly think Rumsfeld was the first to broach the 'Hitler' comparison. Saddam was likened to Hitler as far back as the first gulf war, and comparisons have been made between this war and WWII (as well as the Vietnam War and the Great War) since the inception.

V/R
Shapley

[Haggis@wk]

Shapley,
He’s referring to “Godwin’s Law”

Which really isn’t applicable in Rumsfeld’s speech.

The law states:

“As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”

[Shapley]

Look like Richard Armitage, rather than Karl Rove, was Novak's source for the Plame leak.

I'm willing to accept any acknowlegements of error here online, or via PM if you don't want to go public with it.

V/R
Shapley

[piqaboo]

Wow - and he did it as idle gossip based on a secret memo he saw. Is he going to be , or was he, fired? ( I believe that was the Presidential commitment when the leaker was ID'd).

Revealing a covert operative does not only affect her current (in country, desk) duties, but gives away info on her previous work, which can greatly nullify it (Hmm, says Gov't X - she was here 1998, we better change this that and the other thing she may have learned). Its a bad thing.

[Shapley]

Piq,

He left with Colin Powell, in 2005.

Inadvertent leaking is not illegal, the law only protects those who knowingly expose agents. Then, again, there is the problem that she was not a covert operative under the current definition. Besides which, she was 'outed' once before, by Aldrich Ames, who provided a list of operatives to the Soviet Union back in the '90s.

V/R
Shapley

[piqaboo]

Its not the law, its what Pres Bush said he would do. But ya cant fire a guy who's gone.

Re the outing of a covert agent - you and I have discussed this and I think we'd best agree to disagree, because we will not see eye to eye on this one.

[Shapley]

I concur.

I guess he could hire him back so he can fire him.