Warren Jeffs

[Giant Communist Robot]

This story makes a case against too much local control--those children had a right to be protected from what happened to them, regardless of how the community felt.

I feel this also applies to teaching evolution. Children have a right to know the truth.

[Shapley]

I haven't been following his case, but I'm glad to see he has been apprehended.

[Nicole Marie]

Did anyone read the book "Under the Banner of Heaven"? It really highlights how these groups take control of an area and it is difficult to monitor what goes on. It leaves too much room for abuse to take place. The book discusses the Jeffs group and takes a deep look into how they started. That polygamist group had been around for a while, way before the Jeffs took over. The book also shows a great history of the Mormon church from its start to present day and how the practice of polygamy has developed (or in some cases not developed) over the years.

[piqaboo]

Why do so many polygamists want to marry children? ICK.
Consenting adults is one thing, but these guys (like Tom Green)... just nasty nasty nasty.

[BigJon]

It's about maintaining control within family lines.

[Shapley]

Why do so many polygamists want to marry children? ICK.
Consenting adults is one thing, but these guys (like Tom Green)... just nasty nasty nasty.

I think that's why I pay so little attention to the news on this - the concept is so completely beyond my understanding. If they referred to him merely as a pedophile It would be one thing. Perhaps marriage is his way of getting around the pedophile thing.

I watched a news show on one of the polygamy sects, I believe it was in Arizona, a few years back. One of the polygamists' wife was the Sheriff in the county he resided in, and the State pretty well turned a blind eye to his lifestyle as long as he 'kept it in the family'. I believe his youngest wife was 11 or 12. One of the younger children was talking about her desire to grow up to be one of his wives - I gathered from the report that the child was one of his own offspring but I don't believe they ever said so. I couldn't even watch the rest of the show - it disgusted me. The one thing I noticed was the abundance of women in the group - there seemed to be few men except the leader and a couple of others who were related to him - which led me to wonder what happened to male offspring in the 'clan', or had they found some secret for over-producing female offspring?

I believe it was Stossel that did the interviews, but I could be mistaken. It was several years ago that I saw it.

V/R
Shapley

[Nicole Marie]

To keep the older men in control, the younger men/boys get kicked out of the "clan". They are literally driven out of town and dumped on the highway. As young as 13! In Utah many groups have now popped up to adopt and take care of the young men. The boys are known as the "Lost Boys". There are groups for the young women who are able to get out. The group Save the Child Brides comes to mind, young women (if they escape) can contact these groups and they help them out.

In the Jeffs group there is a huge number of young babies that die. The police are starting investigations into the grave sites on the Jeffs compound. They have found that as high as 10% of the sites are children under 1 year. Why? Lots of speculation but to really know there is talk of exhuming the graves.

[Shapley]

Nicole,

Thanks. I hadn't thought about that show in a long time - as I said I found the whole thing simply unfathomable. One has to wonder why the States have turned a blind eye on it for so long, and apparently still are in some cases. Jeffs' is only one of these groups out there, from my understanding, yet right now his is the only one in the spotlight. I would guess the others are hunkered down waiting for it to blow over, so they can get back to their pedophilia-and-incest-business-as-usual.

V/R
Shapley

[piqaboo]

Welcome back!

It's about maintaining control within family lines.

Nicole, your information about how the Alpha males drive the younger males out of the group reminds me of wild horses and a few other pack/herd animals.

One of the younger children was talking about her desire to grow up to be one of his wives - I gathered from the report that the child was one of his own offspring

When I was 5, I was determined that I would marry my dad when I grew up. Its a phase of childhood. OT will probably suffer thru it when Altoid hits the appropriate age. It passes and its no excuse.

I'm ok with informed consent polygamy between adults. Let the children grow up.

[elefie]

the whole situation is greatly disturbing...
I mean...just look at the charges...
Unlawful flight to avoid prosecution;
Sexual conduct with a minor;
Conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor;
Rape as an accomplice
(courtesy of Wikipedia...)
...and yet he's a religious leader?

[BigJon]

I have some experience with another group that behaved something like this. It is all about control. It is really an honor society within our society. The family units are run by a matriarch or patriarch and every aspect of the children's and grandchildren's lives are controled by that leader's word.

All the problems of an honor society erupt from time to time too. Power struggles, banishment, mentally ill leaders causing untold damage to his "family" because his word is law and no matter how irrational, it must be obeyed. Ugly, ugly business and the damaged people that result are beyond sad.

[Nicole Marie]

Nicole,

One has to wonder why the States have turned a blind eye on it for so long, and apparently still are in some cases.
V/R
Shapley

This gives a good history: http://www.childbrides.org/history.html

There is a whole list of reasons why they have turned an eye and do not go after these groups. I really encourage people to read "Under the Banner of Heaven"; it outlines the entire culture from the beginning to present. The US turned its head up until the 1950's. During the 50's the feds put pressure on the state of Utah to do something about it. That time period is now known as "the Raids". State and fed agencies raided these compounds to break them apart. All it did was drive them further underground. Some groups located to Mexico and Canada where the US cannot touch them.

There is also some big politics involved in the issues too. The original belief of the Mormons is that polygamy is OK. It's one of the original principles. Because Mormonism is a recognized religion in the US, many of the polygamist groups have argued in court, for example, that polygamy is a religious practice and should be out of government control. It's such a hot button issue in Utah, AZ and NM that many have not wanted to touch it. Most states look away as long as adults are involved but the public outcry became to deafening when it was learned the Jeffs group was hurting young kids. The feds had no choice but to act... finally.

One reason why the US took until the 1950's to act was they needed Utah. Utah was the connecting point when this country was developing. Traders and those headed west stopped in Utah to trade and many of the first routes west went through Utah. If the fed government wanted to keep developing the country and using Utah to pass through they had to stay out of Utah politics. That became the status quo and the fed government left Utah alone. In the 1950's public outcry popped up and "the Raids" took place. It seems like they will never get rid of the practice, just "deal with it" from time to time. (Read the book! Really!) The Short Creek was the most famous raid: http://www.childbrides.org/history_scraid1.html

There are some wild ideas with in the Mormon religion. The Golden Mountain always gets me. The thought is that when Judgment day comes, those that believe it - will hide within the Mountain (it's an actual mt in Utah). They built a mineshaft with rooms etc; the mountain is basically a bomb shelter. Well, folks can hide in it and once God has finished wiping the Earth clean, people can emerge from the Mountain to restart the planet. They also believe that God will fill the Mountain with gold so they will have money to get back up and running. I want a Mountain with gold in it!