Gas Price Outrage!

[piqaboo]

piqaboo wrote:
Your cited facts are wrong. Those I'll work to refute.

I await.

Just checking: you did realize I was referring to organic produce and the likelyhood of bacterial contamination, not gasoline, yes?

Corn-produced ethanol is stupid. Corn is hard to grow, fussy and wants a lot of feeding and water. Other plants produce more ethanol for less effort, less cost.

While in no way changing my opinion, I entirely resign from any attempt not to convert you to it, but to get you to at least understand what it is I am saying. I feel as tho I've been speaking ASL to a bunch of folks wearing dark glasses. Its an impressive ability to miss the point.
Ciao,
have fun with your oh so much lower than they need to be gas prices.
I do hope you are stock holders.

[BenODen]

I can't believe nobody posted this here: Opec To cut oil Production. It confuses things in that somebody else is manipulating prices, but makes me upset as well. If $37 dollars a barrel was good enough for them two years ago, why do they need $55 a barrel now? Our curency certainly hasn't lost that much against foreign currencies.

Gas had better keep going down in denver after oil stabilizes and not come back up... We're stuck at $2.50 as well along with most of the west (4 corners states WY and west, New england region (Maine is low priced, though) and Florida. The low priced states (1.95-2.10ish) are in the mid west (Texas, ND, SD, to the east) and the southeast (south of connecticut north of florida.) Gas prices are rather uniform these days... CA is no longer the most expensive one, the whole west seems to have Californiatis, thanks... I have no theories, only complaints for being included in the high prices...

[BigJon]

piqaboo wrote:
Your cited facts are wrong. Those I'll work to refute.

I await.

Just checking: you did realize I was referring to organic produce and the likelihood of bacterial contamination, not gasoline, yes?

Yep, I still await.

Corn-produced ethanol is stupid. Corn is hard to grow, fussy and wants a lot of feeding and water. Other plants produce more ethanol for less effort, less cost.

While in no way changing my opinion, I entirely resign from any attempt not to convert you to it, but to get you to at least understand what it is I am saying. I feel as tho I've been speaking ASL to a bunch of folks wearing dark glasses. Its an impressive ability to miss the point.
Ciao,
have fun with your oh so much lower than they need to be gas prices.
I do hope you are stock holders.

Part of this rant doesn't parse. Which point of yours isn't being understood? Ethanol? Prices? Whining?

I never said I liked higher gasoline prices, I just loved living with "low" prices all these years, thankyouverymuch.

I hold a lot of stock, which ones do you want to discuss?

BTW, I'm still waiting for examples of big oil whining too. I poked around the intarweb a bit and he only thing that remotely resembles it that I can find is the congressional hearing in April.

[OperaTenor]

I can't believe nobody posted this here: Opec To cut oil Production. It confuses things in that somebody else is manipulating prices, but makes me upset as well. If $37 dollars a barrel was good enough for them two years ago, why do they need $55 a barrel now? Our curency certainly hasn't lost that much against foreign currencies.

Gas had better keep going down in denver after oil stabilizes and not come back up... We're stuck at $2.50 as well along with most of the west (4 corners states WY and west, New england region (Maine is low priced, though) and Florida. The low priced states (1.95-2.10ish) are in the mid west (Texas, ND, SD, to the east) and the southeast (south of connecticut north of florida.) Gas prices are rather uniform these days... CA is no longer the most expensive one, the whole west seems to have Californiatis, thanks... I have no theories, only complaints for being included in the high prices...

Two words: Oil Suppression.

[Haggis@wk]

$2.03 this morning in Plano

[Haggis@wk]

Oil prices go up—Reuters is fearful:

”Oil surged to record highs above $78 on Friday on fears that conflict between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas could escalate and spread to more Middle East countries.”

Oil prices go down—Reuters is concerned:

”Oil has tumbled more than 20 percent from peak levels of close to $78 per barrel in July, sparking concerns among some producer nations of a prolonged slump in oil prices.”

Whadda ya think they’d say if the price of oil remained stable? That oil prices are “stagnating”?

[BenODen]

Oil prices go up—Reuters is fearful:

”Oil surged to record highs above $78 on Friday on fears that conflict between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas could escalate and spread to more Middle East countries.”

This isn't Reuters being fearful, this is Reuters reporting that the buyers of oil fear conflict. But it's really the investors betting that they can sell their expensive options to somebody without options and still beat the spot price. The producers love it!

Oil prices go down—Reuters is concerned:

”Oil has tumbled more than 20 percent from peak levels of close to $78 per barrel in July, sparking concerns among some producer nations of a prolonged slump in oil prices.”

Here, it's the producers whining that they're not getting enough money from the oil, and we'd better get our acts together.

Whadda ya think they’d say if the price of oil remained stable? That oil prices are “stagnating”?

And the third thing would bother the shareholders. HOW DARE you not give us more money this year than you did last year! I'm selling!

[GreatCarouser]

When I was thinking about becoming an owner-operator of a tractor trailer one of the figures strongly in the expense side of the ledger was fuel expenses. You learn to find the cheapest fuel by dropping the taxes. The amount paid to the Feds is uniform and you get a rebate on the state tax based on where you buy your fuel and where your road taxes are paid.

In the old days (pre- coast to coast permits) you paid for a road use permit in every state you were licensed to haul through. It is still true you pay for a permit for every state but now you pay for one sticker that is good for many/all states. The states you buy your fuel in 'refund' some of your use tax/permit fees in the form of a rebate based on the amount of state tax you pay for fuel. This is why some long haul truckers will avoid fueling in OR. The taxes are low, the fuel price is generally higher than CA or WA and the rebate from the state is almost non-existent. So while your original outlay may be lower you wind up paying more in the end. The bigger firms don't care so much because even though you fuel in a state you may only travel a short distance through, they can take any extra rebate and apply it to their fleet as they will have additional miles racked up somewhere. The smaller independent haulers who don't 'lease' through a large fleet have to be more selective.

While all that is interesting the point is until you drop taxes from fuel tax prices you won't have a good idea of what you are paying for fuel. Dropping taxes from fuel prices often gave surprising resuts. Gasoline in CA is often 'cheaper' than in neighboring states until one adds in the taxes and fees for the special additives. Quoting prices from TX and OK will be lower than anyplace else 98% of the time.

[BigJon]

Since it's been brought up repeatedly, here is an article (with limited explanation) on most of the causes for CA's high gas prices. At least the most direct ones. The causes of the causes aren't explored. This is also a good primer on gas prices elsewhere in the U.S. Do you know who your local refineries are?

I posted this on Sept 30, but never got a chance to flesh it out.

No need to blame villains, spooks, cabals or anything occult for our price of gasoline. There are two very important groups who hold the majority of the power over the price we pay. They are not, specifically, the two named by OT although they could easily intersect. That's why I asked for examples.

So refineries are the one primary cause behind the cause and this article lists the other. Do you know what your pension fund is doing?

As I stated above, this doesn't absolve big oil of anything because they also own some of the refineries and someof the trading entities. If I'm in the oil business and people who are not in the oil business are dumb enough to gamble in my market by bidding up my product to stratospheric levels, I'm gonna jump on that like a BigJon on steak.

This is the intersection and there are 27 roads leading into it. The knee-jerk reaction that it is all the big seven oil company's fault, and only their fault, doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[Haggis@wk]

$2.02 in Plano this morning

[Serenity]

Try this site to look for cheap gas anywhere:

http://www.gasbuddy.com

[Giant Communist Robot]

Since it's been brought up repeatedly, here is an article (with limited explanation) on most of the causes for CA's high gas prices

The first sentence is an error--this person has a Phd and doesn't know that Hawaii is part of the United States or that it has higher gas prices than California? I don't think so, but it certainly adds to the emotional impact when they leave the facts out, doesn't it? Why did they do that? What is their motive for lying to their readers?

I don't understand why people are upset over the oil companies making money. Is their some evidence of price fixing or a conspiracy? No? What's wrong with some companies making money?

So refineries are the one primary cause behind the cause and this article lists the other

So an industry making money is one cause, and the other is speculation. Hmmph. The function of the speculators in the market is to provide liquidity for and assume risk from the commercials. I've seen this argument before--that speculators cause the price to be unaturally high--and it may be true, but since we have no data for oil markets confined to commercials we can't know this.

If I'm in the oil business and people who are not in the oil business are dumb enough to gamble in my market

An elegant rephrasing of the axiom 'a man makes his money in his own business and loses it it another' , which refers to speculation.

Since oil is sorta an inelastic market, in the sense that demand doesn't drop, supply and demand doesn't always account for the price. I've spent time reading through OPEC's stuff, and I'm not sure about their methodology, but it could go something like this:

an IMF paper stated that for every permanent $5 increase for a barrel of oil, the world GDP slows by 1/4 of a percent. Looking at the curve, there must be an optimal point--like a second order deriveative--as too high a price will effect economies and oil producers will eventually suffer. But OPEC doesn't control the market.

The price of oil is whatever the market will bear.

[shostakovich]

Prices bottomed at $2.45 down the street. Back up to $2.49. Have the oil companies figured out the pre-election ploy can't compensate for all the bad stuff hitting the Republicans?

Or are they just out to get ME?

[Giant Communist Robot]

Looky at this chart from the OPEC site: http://www.opec.org/home/PowerPoint/Taxation/taxation.htm

Notice that in the U.S., the national taxes come to more than the oil company margin. Add on some state and local taxes, too. Now tell me, where is the government's incentive to see you get lower gas prices?

If I have time later this week, I'll chime in with my own moronic opinion on ethanol--its front page stuff here in Hawaii. Ethanol--not my opinion.

[BigJon]

So refineries are the one primary cause behind the cause and this article lists the other

So an industry making money is one cause, and the other is speculation. Hmmph. The function of the speculators in the market is to provide liquidity for and assume risk from the commercials.

Umm, no. The function of speculators is to try to make money. What you mention are the byproducts of speculation. I'm wasn't trying to cast judgement, I was just trying to explain who really holds the keys to the price we pay at the pump, rather than the public's (irrationally) favorite whipping boys.

I've seen this argument before--that speculators cause the price to be unnaturally high--and it may be true, but since we have no data for oil markets confined to commercials we can't know this.

So you don't believe that speculators behave irrationally at times and bid prices beyond all reason in the short term?

If I'm in the oil business and people who are not in the oil business are dumb enough to gamble in my market

An elegant rephrasing of the axiom 'a man makes his money in his own business and loses it in another,' which refers to speculation.

Why, thank you!

[Giant Communist Robot]

Umm, no. The function of speculators is to try to make money

I meant economic function. What function are you refering to?

So you don't believe that speculators behave irrationally at times and bid prices beyond all reason in the short term?

I don't know what belief has to do with it. I said we have no data and cannot know.

[Haggis@wk]

$1.99 in Plano this morning

[OperaTenor]

$2.54 in Rancho Bernardo yesterday.

[Giant Communist Robot]

Two economists are walking down the street when they see a guy leaning out of his window arguing about gas prices with another guy across the street.

'They'll never come to agreement,' said the first economist.

'Why not?' asked the second.

'Because they are arguing from different premises,' explained the first.

[piqaboo]

Ba dum ching!