America, land of torture? It can't happen here...

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Postby piqaboo » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:07 pm

BTW - I reread my post and its lacking a thing or two
(Hush Haggis, I know you think its entirely lacking in sanity. Jes hush!)

Considering how many folks we've got holed up, some of em have to be actively willing to do really nasty things to us. Some of em are probably both a whole lot more willing & a whole lot more able than they were before getting stashed. No one likes prison. Cestlavie.
Problem with the system is we've got no way to distinquish between the two on release. What do we do with these guys we;ve tarred if no one else takes em? Bring em home?
At least a transparent system of charges etc would simplify that part of the process.

And on another note, Can you Freaking Believe that the mail of terrorists jailed in the US proper is not read? These guys are in following all due process. So we should let them plan remotely? Sheeshs.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Postby BigJon » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:24 am

OperaTenor wrote: the Atticus principle

Wassat?
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Postby OperaTenor » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:10 am

BigJon wrote:
OperaTenor wrote: the Atticus principle

Wassat?


Read To Kill a Mockingbird.
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Postby BigJon » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:32 pm

OperaTenor wrote:
BigJon wrote:
OperaTenor wrote: the Atticus principle

Wassat?


Read To Kill a Mockingbird.

I have, several times. Still mystified.
Even a blind nut finds a squirrel once in a while. – Me! Feb 9, 2001
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Postby OperaTenor » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:26 pm

BigJon wrote:
OperaTenor wrote:
BigJon wrote:
OperaTenor wrote: the Atticus principle

Wassat?


Read To Kill a Mockingbird.

I have, several times. Still mystified.


What does Atticus always tell Jem and Scout to do?
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Postby BigJon » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:02 am

Eat their fried collard greens and organically grown spinach? :twisted:

Seriously; would it be. . .
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Postby Haggis@wk » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:54 am

Alan Dershowitz, writing in the New York Sun, complains of a double standard applied by the media to him and Bill Clinton. Dershowitz elicited a wave of criticism and outrage when he argued that American law should set up a narrow exception to the laws against torture in order to allow accountability for it. However, when Bill Clinton made the exact same argument during an NPR interview, the media never bothered to report it:

”In a recent interview on National Public Radio, Mr. Clinton was asked, as someone "who's been there," whether the president needs "the option of authorizing torture in an extreme case."

This is what he said in response: "Look, if the president needed an option, there's all sorts of things they can do.Let's take the best case, OK.You picked up someone you know is the No. 2 aide to Osama bin Laden. And you know they have an operation planned for the United States or some European capital in the next three days. And you know this guy knows it. Right, that's the clearest example. And you think you can only get it out of this guy by shooting him full of some drugs or water-boarding him or otherwise working him over. If they really believed that that scenario is likely to occur, let them come forward with an alternate proposal.

"We have a system of laws here where nobody should be above the law, and you don't need blanket advance approval for blanket torture. They can draw a statute much more narrowly, which would permit the president to make a finding in a case like I just outlined, and then that finding could be submitted even if after the fact to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court." ...

For suggesting this approach to the terrible choice of evils between torture and terrorism, I was condemned as a moral monster, labeled an advocate of torture, and called a Torquemada.”


Clinton argued not just for a legal opening to authorize torture -- not abuse, not coercive techniques, but the legal ability to "work over" terrorists -- but also to allow the executive to cover itself with an ex post facto warrant from the FISA court.

That would allow the President to conduct torture illegally but then cover him/herself afterwards by getting FISA judges to provide cover.

The Left's response? Yawn.

But thaty's hardly the end of the hypocrisy.

Congress just passed a bill, signed by President Bush yesterday, that explicitly authorizes the tough interrogations of terror suspects that has stopped at least eight terror attacks on America and American assets. It does not authorize torture and requires interrogators to adhere to the McCain Amendment, which prohibited torture.

How did Senator Hillary Clinton vote on that bill? She opposed it, along with 32 other Democrats.

Bill Clinton's party screamed loud and long about how the bill enabled torture and departed from the Geneva Conventions. Russ Feingold described this legislation as "a stain" on our history, one we would regret, and soon.

Yet none of these Democrats had anything to say when their last occupant of the White House not only endorsed torture but also a protocol for covering one's butt after the fact.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Postby OperaTenor » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:30 am

For the record, I've had something of an epiphany/disillusionment after reading Torture Taxi, in that I can't blame GWB alone for taking the U.S. down the road to the Dark Ages - Bill Clinton shares the blame equally for his tacit consent of extraordinary rendition from the beginning.

Our nation is headed down a dark road. We apparently haven't really learned anything from history.
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Postby Shapley » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:08 pm

OT,

The world is headed into a dark place. I won't say it hasn't been there before, but it hasn't been in a long time. We are facing an enemy that is ruthless in it's methods, and cannot be dealt with using the same standards that one applies to conventional enemies. We have spent centuries defining the rules of engagement, and now we face a foe that cares nothing for those rules. So how do we fight them?

President Nixon said we have to match the enemy 'atrocity for atrocity', yet such actions on our part lose favour with our allies or potential allies that seek to contain the enemy through appeasment and diplomacy. My own view is that appeasment and diplomacy do not work with this enemy. We do not have dialogue with them. They are the enemies of all states, yet not all states are willing to engage them as such. How do we engage them when they take refuge in states that are unwilling to engage them yet stand to lose much by their presence? This President and I are in agreement that we have to engage them, and we have to engage them now. I don't relish the thought of war, but I don't see an alternative. The enemy is growing. We cannot delay in our efforts or we will be overwhelmed. It is like a cancer that has to be treated or the patient will die, even though the treatment will cause significant damage
as well.

President Bush said all nations have a stake in the war on terror, and we can only defeat it through a united front. We don't have a united front. Some blame the U.S. for not uniting in a strategy of appeasment. I blame the other nations for not uniting behind an assault. Who is right and who is wrong? I cannot say. I can only say that we have chosen the path and set off on our journey, and we cannot turn back. The enemy is lurking, looking for signs of weakness. They are masters of manipulation, and will exploit any sign that we lack resolve. Why this enemy hates us does not matter now, it only matters that they do. We have to confront them and we have to defeat them. Our methods will not always be pretty. Our methods will not always work. The war was brought to us, and we must now see it through to its conclusion.

V/R
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Postby OperaTenor » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:54 pm

What a load of unmitigated crap.

There is no justification whatsoever for ever torturing anyone.
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Postby Shapley » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:00 pm

There is no justification whatsoever for ever torturing anyone.


And where, in my load of unmitigated crap, did I propose torturing anyone? I said that we have to use 'unconventional methods' of dealing with an unconventional enemy.

I don't think I've ever called your opinions 'unmitigated crap'. You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you've lowered the bar on our discussions a notch or two.

V/R
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Postby OperaTenor » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:08 pm

The GWB administration's use of the term refers directly to torture. We do it, and we "disappear" people.

Trying to equivocate around the fact your chosen party espouses treating others that way doesn't cut it. It's being done, and if you feel insulted by being confronted by the reality of it, and the fact we're ALL responsible for it, then so be it.
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Postby audiogirl » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:28 pm

I understand that Clara Schumann once tortured an Italian to learn the secret recipe for gelato. 8)
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Postby barfle » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:12 pm

I think it's worth saying again that I got good gelato in both Quebec and Ottowa over the last couple of weeks.

Oh, Canada! Teach us yanks a thing or two!!
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Postby piqaboo » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:19 pm

When I was in Quebec last year it was so cold I didnt even think of gelato! I wonder what I missed. (I've been told gelato is only seasonally available in much of Italy. How clever!)
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Postby shostakovich » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:14 pm

I think Bush is embracing gelato methods of interrogation ------------ or was that "Gestapo"?
Shos, hijacking a hijack :wink:
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Postby barfle » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:15 pm

piqaboo wrote:When I was in Quebec last year it was so cold I didnt even think of gelato!

The horror. The horror.

piqaboo wrote:I wonder what I missed.

Gelato, of course! The Quebecois got it right, as did the Ottowans.
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Postby OperaTenor » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:06 am

I guess we're all on that river in Egypt on this one...
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Postby GreatCarouser » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:17 am

So, let me see if I understand...because Clinton also advocated (discussed or floated seems more likely) this 'solution' that makes it right? I don't think so. My opposition to the 'torture' (you can call it 'abuse' or coercive techniques' or 'chocolate cake' if you want to, the distinctions and hairsplitting about the legal levels of pain we are allowed to inflict is positively Orwellian) is morally based. If I am naive to insist that a country 'ruled by law' be governed by a higher standard than our opponents then call me naive.

Clinton made the argument but proposed legislation never came of it. There is a difference between saying to your buddies "we need money," then discussing theft as an option and going out and robbing a bank. Had proposed legislation about it come up then would have been the time to squawk. I don't think removing our planners' ability to brainstorm by telling them any idea is 'off limits' to discussion is a productive way to find solutions to problems. I do think we must stand up and speak out when the proposed 'solution' is out of bounds. BTW, I don't see any mention of suspension of habeus corpus here, or the other 'extras' that increased the deplorable nature of that bill. Anyway that you guys can blame that one on Clinton too?

As to the media's not reporting on it. If that were the case, how did you come to find out about it? Were you a fly on the wall during the interview? Did you make it up? No, it seems you found a source from....the MSM....wonder of wonders!

As to 'Denial'. I just think many on this forum prefer not to discuss the politics here. We did sort of slip in the backdoor considering the theme of the host site. I'm as grateful for them as for those who do.
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Postby OperaTenor » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:11 pm

GC, if you're thinking I'm turning a blind eye to Clinton on this one, you're wrong.

No, I'm as appalled by the fact of Clinton opening the door on this crap as I am to GWB throwing the door wide open on it.
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