The Next Vice-President?

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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Shapley » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:20 pm

jamiebk wrote:OK Shap please then tell me that you are 100% and totally convinced that she is the right person to be a POTUS? You have no qualms whatsoever about her holding the total executive power of the office including going nose to nose with Putin and other US dretractors? That she is truly qualified to put her finger on our nuclear button? That she could easily step into the shoes of the Commander in Chief? What's she gonna do if she's confronted with a real threat? Offer them a plate of home made cookies and tell them "I'll get back to ya"? Please don't tell me that you would actually vote to put our country in her hands. Do you honestly believe that she is the strongest person McCain could have picked?


I could, and have, asked the same about Sen. Obama. I am content that she is as capable as he. What is that makes you think she is less so? The fact that she's a woman? The fact that she used to be a beauty queen? The fact that the State over which she presides is the third least populous? How do we know what anyone will do if they are confronted with a real threat, until it happens? When has Sen. Obama been 'tested by fire'? In this race, only one candidate has been 'tested by fire', and that is Sen. McCain. He has passed the test, too, BTW. If that is your criteria, I would suggest you get on the McCain bandwagon.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby jamiebk » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:27 pm

Shapley wrote:
jamiebk wrote:OK Shap please then tell me that you are 100% and totally convinced that she is the right person to be a POTUS? You have no qualms whatsoever about her holding the total executive power of the office including going nose to nose with Putin and other US dretractors? That she is truly qualified to put her finger on our nuclear button? That she could easily step into the shoes of the Commander in Chief? What's she gonna do if she's confronted with a real threat? Offer them a plate of home made cookies and tell them "I'll get back to ya"? Please don't tell me that you would actually vote to put our country in her hands. Do you honestly believe that she is the strongest person McCain could have picked?


I could, and have, asked the same about Sen. Obama. I am content that she is as capable as he. What is that makes you think she is less so? The fact that she's a woman? The fact that she used to be a beauty queen? The fact that the State over which she presides is the third least populous? How do we know what anyone will do if they are confronted with a real threat, until it happens? When has Sen. Obama been 'tested by fire'? In this race, only one candidate has been 'tested by fire', and that is Sen. McCain. He has passed the test, too, BTW. If that is your criteria, I would suggest you get on the McCain bandwagon.


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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Shapley » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:17 pm

Very well. Yes. I am comfortable that she has the capability to handle the challenges of the office. I am no more afraid of her 'finger on the button' than I am anyone else's in this campaign. She has shown the fortitude on the hunt to know when to pull the trigger, to aim properly and safely, and make the shot count. Which of her Democrat opponents can make the same claim?

Could she step into the shoes of the Commander-In-Chief? Yes. She is commander-in-chief of her State's National Guard now. She has traveled to Kuwait to see them, she has sent her own son off to war. I think she has the fortitude and leadership ability to take charge and make wise decisions. I also think she has a better understanding of the role of the military and the responsibility of a nation at war than her opponents.

I don't think she's the strongest choice McCain could have made. But she was a good choice. VP selections are made for a variety of reasons, and we're not always privy to what they are. They are almost always political decisions. They are frequently chosen to garner the support of one Demographic group or another. I suspect, though I don't know, she was chosen to show the 'softer side' of McCain - while also showing that the Republican party is not a party of old white men, as it is usually portrayed. At the same time, her credentials among gun-owners is a big factor, since the gun-owner vote will be crucial in an election against a gun-banning Chicago liberal. Her selection leaves no ambiguity as to where the Republican tickets stands on the rights of gun owners.

Now, can you honestly say the same about her opponents?
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby OperaTenor » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:03 pm

Shapley wrote:
OperaTenor wrote:Hey, it's one of the reasons I would have never made CPO in the Navy. A person's title doesn't automatically get my respect - they have to earn it from me.


I never said I respect the person. A Liar is a liar, a thief a thief. But they hold office and as such, are entitled to the respect owed that position.

Sen. Obama has earned your respect how? Gov. Palin has earned your disrepect how? Your respect is your own, and you are free to bestow it as flippantly as you choose, but your enmity for Gov. Palin seems to stem only from the fact that she is a Republican running for high office. Yet, somehow, my partisanship is a discredit.....



I don't care what her party affiliation is. I think she's vicious, self-centered, and not particularly bright. Last time I checked, neither party had a monopoly on those traits.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Serenity » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:38 am

"Tagging voters with cliches simplifies them to the point of caricature — and is far removed from reality........The idea seems to be that claiming kinship with this or that voting bloc is enough to win that bloc over."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081003/ap_ ... e_six_pack
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Haggis@wk » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:04 am

OperaTenor wrote: I think she's vicious


You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but "vicious"? really?
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Haggis@wk » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:31 am

Yesterday, the Palins income tax returns showed the Palins to be squarely in the middle class, with income between $127,000 and $166,000 combined, they also revealed a charity gap between the two VP candidates:

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin made considerably less money than rival Sen. Joe Biden, but the Palin family gave more to charity in the last two years than Biden has in the last eight combined, according to Palin’s tax records released Friday afternoon. …

In 2006, the Palins paid $11,944 in taxes on $127,869 in income. In 2007, they paid $24,738 on $166,080.

But in 2006, they donated $4,880 to charity, and in 2007, they donated $3,325.
By contrast, Biden (D-Del.), Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama’s running mate, has donated a total of $3,690 since 1998 despite his higher Senate salary, according to an analysis posted by National Review.

Recall what Barack Obama said in his appearance at the Saddleback Forum in August:

“Americans’ greatest moral failure in my lifetime,” he said, “has been that we still don’t abide by that basic precept in Matthew that whatever you do for the least of my brothers, you do for me.”

And what Biden claimed as the moral imperative from soaking people with higher taxes:

“Catholic social doctrine as I was taught it is, you take care of people who need the help the most.”

Once again, we see that liberals are really at their best talking about charity while demanding we pay more taxes so they can indulge in the charitable impulse for spending other people’s money
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby jamiebk » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:12 pm

Shapley wrote:
Now, can you honestly say the same about her opponents?


Yes, I can. I do not see how you can possibly see her as experienced enough or savy enough to handle the job. Obama has been around the block a few times, as has Biden. I have no qualms with either of them. I do not see how you can feel comfortable with Palin and not with Obama. Her experience is weak, weak, weak. She runs a state that has fewer people than the city San Francisco! Her debate was most unimpressive (wink, wink). Hey, I don't want a VP who's trying to play cutesie with the camera. I want someone who can look a hostile in the eye and stand their ground. It isn't Palin.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Shapley » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:38 pm

Obama has been around the block a few times


What block? The Streets of Chicago? When has he ever looked a hostile in the eye and stood his ground? What he has done that leads you to think he has one ounce more experience than Gov. Palin? He's been to college, he was a community organizer, he was a minor lawyer in a law firm specializing in social services, he was a State politician and, for a very short time, a federal one. Most of his life, he's been a candidate. He's run nothing. He's been in charge of nothing. Even is legislative accomplishments are minor. What block has he been around?
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Haggis@wk » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:42 pm

jamiebk wrote:
Shapley wrote:
Now, can you honestly say the same about her opponents?


Yes, I can. I do not see how you can possibly see her as experienced enough or savy enough to handle the job. Obama has been around the block a few times, as has Biden. I have no qualms with either of them. I do not see how you can feel comfortable with Palin and not with Obama. Her experience is weak, weak, weak. She runs a state that has fewer people than the city San Francisco! Her debate was most unimpressive (wink, wink). Hey, I don't want a VP who's trying to play cutesie with the camera. I want someone who can look a hostile in the eye and stand their ground. It isn't Palin.



I thought we decided that experience doesn’t count?

Oh well, She is the governor of a state with an $11 billion operating budget, a $1.7 billion capital budget and nearly 29,000 employees; she's got more executive experience than any candidate for president or vice president this year. In Alaska she took on the state political establishment, the incumbent Republican governor and the oil companies.

I guess if she had “more experience” like “Ahnuld” and ran up a buget shortfall of a coupla billions that would make her more qualified?

Your comparison to the city/county of san Francisco was very apt however. In 2003 San Francisco had 31,000 employees and another 4-5,000 on call contractors. Two thosand more for one city than the entire state of Alaska!

As for her commonness or shortcomings, many great presidents (and vice presidents!) have been more average than elitist. Ronald Reagan, from Eureka College, was a far better leader than Woodrow Wilson, a former president of Princeton. Wilson would have given you 100 Supreme Court opinions he disagreed with, whether you wanted to listen or not.

Barack Obama has also introduced Joe Biden as a Joe Six-Pack, saying, "His family didn't have much money … sometimes moving in with the in-laws or working weekends to make ends meet." Biden himself rarely misses a chance to say, "I was an Irish Catholic kid from Scranton with a father who, like many of yours in tough economic times, fell on hard times." Both veep candidates are trying to portray themselves as ordinary folks.

On experience, I'm all for it. But judgment is at least as important. Biden has 35 years in the Senate, yet his record on national-security issues during that span has been atrocious. He might be able to name Germany's chancellor, but he was wrong in his fierce opposition to Ronald Reagan in the 1980s and to the surge in 2007. Even Democrats don't see Biden as president. He got 0.9 percent of the vote in the Iowa caucuses. Forced out of the 1988 White House race for plagiarizing, he is that blend of longevity and long-windedness that you and other liberals accepts as statesmanship.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby shostakovich » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:49 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:Yesterday, the Palins income tax returns showed the Palins to be squarely in the middle class, with income between $127,000 and $166,000 combined, they also revealed a charity gap between the two VP candidates:

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin made considerably less money than rival Sen. Joe Biden, but the Palin family gave more to charity in the last two years than Biden has in the last eight combined, according to Palin’s tax records released Friday afternoon. …

In 2006, the Palins paid $11,944 in taxes on $127,869 in income. In 2007, they paid $24,738 on $166,080.

But in 2006, they donated $4,880 to charity, and in 2007, they donated $3,325.
By contrast, Biden (D-Del.), Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama’s running mate, has donated a total of $3,690 since 1998 despite his higher Senate salary, according to an analysis posted by National Review.

Recall what Barack Obama said in his appearance at the Saddleback Forum in August:

“Americans’ greatest moral failure in my lifetime,” he said, “has been that we still don’t abide by that basic precept in Matthew that whatever you do for the least of my brothers, you do for me.”

And what Biden claimed as the moral imperative from soaking people with higher taxes:

“Catholic social doctrine as I was taught it is, you take care of people who need the help the most.”

Once again, we see that liberals are really at their best talking about charity while demanding we pay more taxes so they can indulge in the charitable impulse for spending other people’s money


The charity aspect is laudable. It would be interesting to know what charities they contributed to. And speaking of charity, for a lot less than $800 billion all the people who are unemployed or who would become unemployed because of the banking debacle could be fed and kept warm through the winter while the financial market stabilizes. Say that would apply to at most 10 million households. Give them up to $50,000, as needed. That's a MAX of $500B put into the hands of those who really need it. The $800B is probably just a starting point. It's galactically galling that the $700B was picked "because it was a very large number".
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:00 am

shostakovich wrote:The $800B is probably just a starting point. It's galactically galling that the $700B was picked "because it was a very large number".


Grab your socks, Shos, they just annouced it's going be be at least twice that amount.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:35 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:
OperaTenor wrote: I think she's vicious


You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but "vicious"? really?


Yes, vicious. She's as cutthroat as they come. You can hear it in her voice(which has so much tension in it I feel like I'm chewing ground glass when I listen to her speak). Her extreme lack of tolerance for others, coupled with her duplicitous self-centeredness are also indicative.

SNL's send-up on the VP debate

A direct comparison of Palin and Tina Fey's portrayal of her

It was so close they felt the need to give Palin writing credit for the SNL bit.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:47 pm

OperaTenor wrote:
Haggis@wk wrote:
OperaTenor wrote: I think she's vicious


You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but "vicious"? really?


Yes, vicious. She's as cutthroat as they come. You can hear it in her voice(which has so much tension in it I feel like I'm chewing ground glass when I listen to her speak). Her extreme lack of tolerance for others, coupled with her duplicitous self-centeredness are also indicative.

SNL's send-up on the VP debate

A direct comparison of Palin and Tina Fey's portrayal of her

It was so close they felt the need to give Palin writing credit for the SNL bit.


Hmm. Okay, I just wondered why you thought that.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby barfle » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:45 pm

jamiebk wrote:she is a Republican running for high office for which she is not qualified...

Nobody is "qualified" for that office. George H.W. Bush probably had the best resume for the office of anyone since I started paying attention, and even he wasn't able to get re-elected.

Some grow into it, but you never know until it's too late. I tend to think governors are closer to being qualified than senators, but then I think about Carter...
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:39 pm

Troopergate is becoming a big issue. I'm disappointed, but Congress doesn't know how to behave. If McCain could win, this investigation would go on as long as Palin was in office.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Shapley » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:42 pm

Giant Communist Robot wrote:Troopergate is becoming a big issue. I'm disappointed, but Congress doesn't know how to behave. If McCain could win, this investigation would go on as long as Palin was in office.


It's a State issue, and should remain one. However, as you note, if Sen. McCain wins, then it will become a Federal one, and the investigation will go on.

How long have they been investigating the firing of nine attorneys, attorneys that serve at the President's discretion?
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby jamiebk » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:54 pm

Shapley wrote:
Giant Communist Robot wrote:Troopergate is becoming a big issue. I'm disappointed, but Congress doesn't know how to behave. If McCain could win, this investigation would go on as long as Palin was in office.


It's a State issue, and should remain one. However, as you note, if Sen. McCain wins, then it will become a Federal one, and the investigation will go on.

How long have they been investigating the firing of nine attorneys, attorneys that serve at the President's discretion?


It's hardly a State's issue when it has to do with a possible Vice President of the United States (and possible President of the US. You just want it to go away, but it won't. It deserves to be heard...as you would say Obama's affiliations deserve to be heard. Its a character issue.
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby Shapley » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:10 pm

jamiebk wrote:It's hardly a State's issue when it has to do with a possible Vice President of the United States (and possible President of the US. You just want it to go away, but it won't. It deserves to be heard...as you would say Obama's affiliations deserve to be heard. Its a character issue.


It will be heard, but it will be heard in the State of Alaska, where it took place, and under whose jurisdiction it falls. Tell me where, in the Constitution, it says that a State crime becomes a Federal one if the accused runs for office?
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Re: The Next Vice-President?

Postby jamiebk » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:20 pm

Shapley wrote:
jamiebk wrote:It's hardly a State's issue when it has to do with a possible Vice President of the United States (and possible President of the US. You just want it to go away, but it won't. It deserves to be heard...as you would say Obama's affiliations deserve to be heard. Its a character issue.


It will be heard, but it will be heard in the State of Alaska, where it took place, and under whose jurisdiction it falls. Tell me where, in the Constitution, it says that a State crime becomes a Federal one if the accused runs for office?


I did not say it was a federal crime...It is a federal election issue
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