Katrina 2005

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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby OperaTenor » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:31 am

Here's the U/T article on it:

Doctors, patients in flooded hospitals beg for rescue

As for the mayor, this was said of his actions prior to the hurricane strike:

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, who had urged residents to flee on Saturday, ordered a mandatory evacuation. The remaining residents with cars clogged the highways to get away.

It would have been up to local officials, a FEMA spokeswoman said, to hire buses to move people who lacked transportation out of the city. But Brown, the FEMA director, publicly urged residents to obey, saying on Sunday, "There's still time to take action now."

Rodney Braxton, the chief lobbyist for New Orleans, said many of the city's poorest residents "had nowhere to go outside the region and no way to get there. And there wasn't enough police power to go to each house to say, 'You have to go, come with me.' "

City officials said they provided free transportation from pickup points publicized on television and radio and by people shouting through megaphones on the streets. In addition to the Superdome, officials opened schools and the convention center as shelters.

Braxton said he believed the city was "aggressive enough" in conducting the evacuation. "We had everything we thought we needed in place. I don't think anybody could ever plan for the magnitude that Katrina ended up being," he said.

But Susan Cutter, a geography professor at the University of South Carolina and an emergency preparedness expert, said New Orleans' mayor should have ordered a mandatory evacuation earlier on Thursday or Friday. She said it would take at least two to three days to fully evacuate New Orleans, a city surrounded by water with few exit routes. The city's hurricane plan said it might take 72 hours for residents to leave.


This is the big finger-pointing article in toto;
Disaster planning never anticipated breaches of levees

<small>[ 09-02-2005, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:58 am

First of all, we thought New Orleans had “dodged a bullet.” We awoke to stories that Biloxi and Gulfport had taken terrible hits but New Orleans had been mostly spared.

FEMA would be on hand in Biloxi and Gulfport, the usual emergency services and aid people would do the usual emergency service and aid things, folks would get their power restored in a few days or weeks, we’d all send small checks and life would pretty much go on as usual.

Then pumps and levees stopped working, and what had been a manageable disaster became a catastrophe of a scope and scale unseen in the U.S. in a hundred years; a city destroyed.

Before Katrina struck, New Orleans and surrounding areas had been declared “disasters” by President Bush, to expedite the delivery of monies and services needed to cope with what everyone believed would be a very bad storm. Actually, he did the same thing, last year, for Hurricane Charley, and was criticized for doing so by some, but that’s not important right now.

Katrina tells us that nature is more powerful than any of us mere mortals can comprehend. But still, mere mortals do the best they can.

I don’t see any thing else that could have been done. In short, the local officials did a brilliant job in evacuating a major city within 30 hours. They established a location people could go to so they wouldn’t die in flood waters.

And the response thus far has been magnificent—is there looting: yes; are there other infirmaties of human nature? Of course—but let no one doubt, the response to this major natural disaster has been superb. And small nitpicking critics will cavil and snipe—but consider what might have been.

I do think that a firmer hand with looters early on might have forestalled the more egregious lawlessness we're seeing now.

But this is a natural disaster without parallel in American history like the Chicago Fire if it had spread across three states -- and disaster relief isn't like calling Domino's. Nor does the fact that we're Americans somehow offer supernatural protection from the consequences of a calamity like this.

Some of the nitpicking and complaining may well be justified, even beyond the inevitable dropped balls in something like this. But there will be plenty of time for that later. Right now, people should be focusing on constructive action, not point-scoring.

Bridges are out, roads are blocked, boats are sunk, and all sorts of other infrastructure is down. Aid can't get through in quantity until that's fixed, at least somewhat. In a situation like this, the first week you get a trickle, the second week you get enough, and the third week you get pretty much all you want.

We're still in week one.

That, as I've said earlier, is why the every household in the U.S. should have enough food and water to get you through a week on your own.

In 124 or so hours since Katrina struck land many things happened:

Between 2,500 and 3,000 people have been rescued by the Coast Guard, National Guard and First Responders.

National Guard and Regular Army have deployed 50,000 troops…the biggest domestic relief effort in U.S. history after Monday’s onslaught by killer Hurricane Katrina.

The Navy is sending the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman to join an armada of vessels off the coast of the Gulf of Mexico.

The Air Force said it was adding a high-flying U-2 spy plane to the relief effort to take pictures to help relief efforts at the request of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

The Army has put on alert roughly 3,000 active-duty ground troops from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, to be prepared to deploy to New Orleans…The brigade-sized force, likely to be from the 82nd Airborne Division, would engage in crowd control and site-protection activities.

Pipelines are being restored and refineries are beginning to get back into operation.

In other words, American generosity and pragmatic idealism is kicking in, as it always does.

Moreover, things are going to get better. Within a week, as floodwaters continue to recede, and the people who are trapped have been rescued, things will look markedly better than they do at this moment, because Americans will do the hard work of making it better - as they always do.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby analog » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:13 pm

Thanks for the encouraging words.
They're seldom enough spoken, let alone heard.

Let's git 'er done.
Cogito ergo doleo.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby monkeymd2b » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:13 pm

Day off so I have time to read these things and I got an email to a yahoo group for Tulane Med Folks. Found out that many were able to get out except for those who were caught in the Code Gray. Those who were able to get out are working in Baton Rouge at those hospitals as NOLA patients are brought there. There's tons of coverage about Charity and Tulane but very few patients have been evacuated from University and there are people shooting at that hospital without any help from the national guard. And you're right, they ARE paid to be shot at so are the cops but somehow this is a different situation?!? The docs at the hospitals are worried that as supplies run out, the patients will turn on them and violence will errupt in the hospitals as well. They had to stop a hemorrhage with duct tape. They basically feel abandoned. And once they are picked up and dropped off in baton rouge, they are left to fend for themselves. According to classmates working at that hospital, people are shooting, mugging, car jacking even in that city without any help from the national guard or local law enforcement. They are running out of space in their hospital and need other hospitals to take the many patients still left to arrive. So far, no deaths of medical personnel have been posted but the patients are failing. The NICU babies at University were not evacuated early like those at Tulane and it's apparently falling apart in terms of being able to keep the fragile babies alive.

Oh and can I say how disgusted I am at GWB's cameos with the victims in mississippi and alabama? Saying there's still great hope or some other crap like that. Promising help and support...right, we'll see how much help is actually provided. I would rather not see him making these PR appearances knowing that he's behind his desk working on a viable plan to help things along.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:30 pm

"Oh and can I say how disgusted I am at GWB's cameos with the victims in mississippi and alabama? Saying there's still great hope or some other crap like that. Promising help and support...right, we'll see how much help is actually provided. I would rather not see him making these PR appearances knowing that he's behind his desk working on a viable plan to help things along."

So he gets complaints that he wasn't there sooner and he get complaints that he was there at all.

He already declared the area a "disaster zone" before the hurricane even hit, he had the aircraft carrier moving within hours of hearing that this was worse than we were being led to beleiver, and.....ah fugedaboudit, you going to cavil and snipe regardless of what the man does...
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Trumpetmaster » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:32 pm

This is off of CNN Website.
I listened to this interview and here is the link with the transcript...
Basically the NOLA mayor is saying to the feds 'Get off your asses'


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby piqaboo » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:34 pm

haggis,
no one doubts that the folks out there who are trying, are trying hard.
Im certain profit centers like companies hwo own pipelines are headed by folks who are tested leaders, and who are focussed on priorties, triage and repair.

My concern is that no one in charge at the local level in NOLA seems to understand priorities, triage, etc. The folks who are trying to help are getting spun in circles. The communications methods available are being used haphazardly.

you are quite right this is a different situation: instead of bringing FEMA and food in, we need to be getting people out.
AND we need to be communicating to people. In part, its the information void that leads to panic.
IF I know Im #3000 in line at the superdome, at least I know there's a line and a bus, and that 1000 are going out per day and I ahve 3 days to wait.If its been 4 days and I dont even know that busses will show up regularly, Im getting pretty freaked. AND those folks are being held there. They cant just decide to try to wade or float their way to another location.

If I'm in hospital, I want to know people are working to get us out.

I'm not there, I'm back-seat driving, but it seems to me there are clear priorities
1) survey the situation. Very do-able by Tuesday night, via helicopter or shallowdraft boat.

2) get the sick and injured out,starting with places where you have them localized and concentrated

3) rescue everyone you can - concentrate them somewhere where they can be moved further (ie small boat to high ground, then bigboat takes them to a roadway, where a bus moves them out of town to a FEMA tentcamp if necessary)(or, if no busses, set up "leaders" to guide them to the tent camps on foot. ) Try really hard not to add people to known "dead ends" like the superdome.

4) communicate to the healthy and relatively safe that they are not forgotten and that you will be moving them too, as soon as the hospitals are empty, for example.

5) BE SEEN TO BE MAKING PROGRESS.
That is one reason to pick a concrete issue and address it. Makin progress gives people confidence. Confidence gives patience and tolerance.

6) where possible, get people involved. People helping others feel a whole lot better.

The mayor obviously cant handle this. Someone needs to. This is a disaster unimaginable to me. I can not wrap my brain around an abandoned city.
I suspect that things would be going faster if the controls were lifted. Volunteers by now would have set up their own 'people pipelines'.
Those rescued would end up all over the map - making it tough on FEMA etc.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby monkeymd2b » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:06 pm

I didn't think it was necessary for him to go to the area in the first place. I was glad that the area was made a "disaster zone" and that is to be commended. My issue about his presence is that it didn't seem to accomplish anything to have him there. So he saw it in person and met those affected. I'm here in oregon and see it on tv and it's had a profound effect on me. I don't need to be there to have this reaction. I guess it's just part of the job that he has to see it and make the statement to encourage a nation to help out...something that had already started.

By the way, knowing that there are snipers out in NOLA, is it really safe to take the leader of the country into an area that even the national guard doesn't want to be?

Actually, I wonder why only choppers are being used to take people from the airport. I haven't seen how flooded out or damaged the runway is but if there is an area where a plane can safely land, doesn't it make more sense to bring some in to get larger numbers out at a time? Actually, how big is airforce 1? If that plane can land at Armstrong airport, then it must be possible to bring other planes in. It seems like a waste of time to use the helicopters - how many folks can they hold anyway?
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Shapley » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:34 pm

monkeymd,

According to the news, the airport has been turned into a temporary hospital, where patients are treated while waiting for evacuation. Plane flights into the area apparently began last night or this morning. I'm sure the runways had to be cleared and checked for structural failures before flights could resume.

The picture isn't as bleak as it was painted. On the one hand we heard that evacuations were halted from the Superdome, on the other hand, we hear that the Astrodome is now filled to capacity and that refugees are being sent to other parts of the city for shelter. To ship enough refugees to fill the Astrodome would require, by my estimation, 200-300 buses, so it's clear the evacuations weren't halted for long.

We were told that 80% of the population had followed the evacuation order, yet we are told there are 30,000 still at the Superdome, 25,000 at the Convention Center (which the FEMA director said he had never been told about, and the news had not reported either), at least 15,000 have been evacuated, not including those who left under their own power in the aftermath, and the mayor says there are about 50,000 still on rooftops, in upper floors, or in non-flooded areas. That is a heck of a lot more than 20% of a population of 470,000. Or am I using "fuzzy math" again?

You also have to realize that the rescuers will initially be stopping in the outskirts to help some of the first refugees that they see, so it is logical that some time will pass before they reach the heart of the city. Those that were reportedly bypassing the crowds of refugees on the highway most likely had orders to proceed to the heart of the city, and could not be waylaid.

The damage is spread over about 90,000 square miles. If there 100,000 rescue workers on the scene, it is entirely possible that you could spend whole days and not see one.

V/R
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby piqaboo » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:47 pm

Cant someone wave a magic wand and make it all better??? Please??? Just for me, because Im selfish? I liked New Orleans. I will miss it.


yes, the mayor's math is fuzzy. Q is where did any of his figures except hotel occupancy adn superdome come from?
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby piqaboo » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:56 pm

Just read that Nagin interview TM posted. The guy's in a blindblue panic. He "doesnt know" if the governor has asked for federal assistance?
Sheesh.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby Trumpetmaster » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:00 pm

He's in a blindblue panic because chaos has broken out over NOLA and he is finger pointing at the Fed Gvmt for not acting faster to get in there.

Not to diminish his plight but maybe he needs to find out why he setup Shelters of Last Resort with inadequate supplies/facilities....

He's correct that Martial Law needs to be implemented but it's due to his and other local gvmt screw ups.....

Kind of like he took a dump in public....
Did not clean up after himself....
Now looking for someone else to cleanup his mess..

:eek:

<small>[ 09-02-2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: TrumpetMaster ]</small>
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby OperaTenor » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:43 pm

Hey Haggis,

I think Monkeymdshebe voted for GWB this last time around, so you're preachin' to the choir!

:p
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby monkeymd2b » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:54 pm

What?!? vote for GWB? Oh god no! Or perhaps it's all a joke and I'm too tired to realize that. Actually, I wasn't too fond of either option in the election. But let's not get distracted by that past event and keep thinking about the folks still in NOLA and other equally devastated cities in the south.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby dai bread » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:12 pm

I see in my paper this morning that other countries have offered aid and it is likely to be accepted. This includes aid from the "treacherous" French & Germans, and that funny little anti-nuclear place in the South Pacific.

But really, only a few of us care much about what Washington thinks of us. We just offer to do what we can to help out.
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby zlosin » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:27 pm

Thank you from the bottom of my heart Dai Bread.
We are going to need all the help we can get.

I just read the hurricane pam scenario.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/incaseofemrgencyexercise.htm
To quote from it:
Two years ago, officials with the American Red Cross estimated that the death toll from a catastrophic hurricane in the New Orleans area could be between 25,000 and 100,000, which would be more than any hurricane in the U.S. has caused.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby OperaTenor » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:51 pm

Hi mmdub,

Sorry for the mistake. I recall you were debating who to vote for, and that your parents were staunch Republican supporters, and that you were thinking of going that way. Maxima mea culpa! :o

:D

Hi DB,

I wish everyone would share that ideal.
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby monkeymd2b » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:15 am

almost got it right, they are staunch democrats. Ho hum, I should sleep since I'm on overnight call tomorrow. Oh and I heard from more friends who were able to leave prior to the storm. Kind of the same story, alive and well but homeless.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby monkeymd2b » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:38 pm

If you want to help, housing is basically gone in baton rouge and other areas near to NOLA and in order for medical staff and residents to return to help clean up the area and get the city's hospitals going again or at least to help with those evacuees requiring medical assistance in BR and the surrounding areas, they need places to lay their bodies and junk. If you know of folks willing to help house people, let me know and I'll pass the info to my classmates down there. They can't bring in relief workers if there's no housing for them. Apparently all real estate was sold at 150% list value by last week wednesday. Anyway, time for a little nap and a snack...in some logical order I'm not able to figure out in a post call state of mind

Oooh! And fun info - in the 2006 guiness book of world records, just released, Dr Tyler Curiel's Record breaking basketball dribbling event that my classmates and I helped organize back in 2003 for our classmate Andy Martin's cancer research (www. bounceforlife.org) is finally there! (what a run on sentence that was!) Kind of took them a long time to get that published. Dr Curiel was one of the docs who was in the hospital in NOLA this past week. Andy died in November 2004 from his cancer.
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Re: Katrina 2005

Postby barfle » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:39 pm

We finally heard from our friend from New Orleans today. She had left the Friday before Katrina in a rented truck to help a friend move from Chicago to New Orleans. A neighbor rescued her cats, so all are well, but she's a bit frazzed about the whole thing.

Her main concerns were for the people still stuck there. She's pretty sure she's lost just about everything she owns, but she's headed for California and her family until her head settles down.
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