The dimise of my city's orchestra

[CorsicanOgre]

Here in Calgary (where I come from) our orchestra (the CPO) is facing a crisis. Just recently they have filed for bankrupcy and our city is in danger of losing them. Today, they had a benefit concert where the muscians played without play, the concert hall was lent out for free and ect. They made 10 000 dollars (canadian dollars that is), so a pretty good amount but not enough to save them (that was the dress reheasal so hopefully the actual concert will get even more money)<P>I think that it is absoulutly appalling that one year of our highest payed hockey player's salery could solve all the problems of our orchestra and more. The musicans obviously belive in their profession much more than the hockey players as they don't ask for huge saleries, instead they live off of what many would consider substandard pay. <P>Our city of 1 million can't support an orchestra that only needs about a million dollars and yet will go to great lengths to hire a hockey player and pay him more than a million (U.S that is) a year! This is absolutly terrible. What do you guys think if this?

[Brodie]

Well, you have to keep this in mind, it is sad and all that your orchestra is going under but it is very expensive and time consuming no matter what to try and make and maintain an orchestra no matter the size. And....and to pay for that you have to have people who are willing to pay to see it and if there are no people willing to see it then there is no point in having it.<P>Hockey on the other hand is almost self sufficient. It pays as it goes. Lots of people love to watch a bunch of toothless guys on skates with sticks chasing a small black object in a rink while beating the crap out of each other. Its great. I know I sure as hell love it. So it pays as it goes.<P>And besides...look at baseball...hardly anybody watches that, but people are getting paid up to 25 million a year. I think last time I checked the most a hockey player ever got paid was 3.4 million. So it is a relatively cheap sport in comparison to others.<P>And also you have to keep in mind that people who run the city are interested in money. They are not interested jobs, class, culture, and anything of that nature it is strictly money. And they what they can to get it. And that's the way it works...<P>And too bad if you don't like it...as I said before...that's the way it works...<P><BR>-Brodie

[CorsicanOgre]

Well anyways, I probably should take my comments back. In the actual preformance people started lining up two hours prior to the concert and even those who didn't get in still donated to the CPO. Last time I heard they had made 70 000 dollars and counting. That's close to 10% of the debt. Maybe the CPO will survive to play another day after all. I certainly hope so.

[shostakovich]

Hi Ogre. It's difficult to put into words the fury I have over salaries relative to jobs, commitment, worth, etc. I think it's appalling that schools generally choose sports over culture in a crunch. SCHOOLS, yet. Nobody needs a school to learn a sport. You watch and do. The arts desperately NEED schooling to remain viable. "Watch and do", "listen and do", "think and do" are not sufficient.<P>It was back in the Kennedy era that physical fitness got a boost. It was not intended to be at the expense of mental fitness, but that's largely what happened. I ache for a leader who will propagandize for mental fitness (i.e. far better education). It SHOULD have happened under Clinton-Gore, but fell far short. It won't under Bush. <P>The "free market economy" lets the tail wag the dog (freedom has a down side, folks). There's no direction in it. In addition, things like taste, manners, accountability, responsibility have been eroding steadily for about a half century. And , by the way, they are eroding within our educational system, which is why we no longer have the best public education in the world (we once did, I'd say, in the 1950s), and why our society has so many air-heads that recognition of our flaws, individual and personal, seems beyond hope.<P>Our cultural problems and their causes are more complex than any one person can ferret out, but at least I got some of my pet peeves aired. "Mental fitness for all" is a good slogan. If adopted, we might have a chance for a more decent world some day (not in my life time, but I'm pushing brain-appreciation for future generations).<BR>Shos

[dkm32]

Hang in there, Ogre!<P>The San Diego Symphony filed for bankrupcy a couple of years ago. Eveyone was saying it was the end of culture in San Diego (not that we had a lot ). And, we had just lost one of the world's greatest Classical Music Stations. City fathers/mothers said "too bad!" Doom and gloom!<P>Well, we still don't have any Classical radio station. But, our Syphmony is doing fine. It re-built itself (without the city's help) and was in the black last year. It attacked enough attention that it got a major (MAJOR!) donation about 6 months ago that will keep it running for several years.<P>Hopefully, yours can do the same. So hang in there! Good luck!<p>[ 11-10-2002: Message edited by: dkm32 ]

[priya978]

I agree Shos.<BR> It's apalling above everything. The schools around where I live are thinking about cutting back, like taking the people that aren't excelling in school, with those people they're thinking about taking back some of the electives. I.e. band. That's downright wrong! But yet they have about 5 different sprots going on at our school, and for those people they aren't saying anything of taking back the sports. Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Wrong!!!! With band you learn a lot of things in one, how to concentrate on one thing more, to sit still, to listen, and this has been proven, I doubt that hitting a ball with a stick is mind-enriching. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????? x infinity

[barfle]

Brodie, I'm afraid you are far more correct than I would like to admit in this case. I know in SoCal, there are two hockey teams that regularly sell out 15,000 seat arenas (or more) in spite of them being lousy teams and having outrageous ticket prices. They also have two decent symphonies, but they require philanthropic assistance almost constantly.<P>These days, spectator sports just seems to be the way a lot of folks want to spend their time. I even caught my wife (who claims to HATE football) watching football this weekend! Of course, she turned off a car race to see it. <P>For the record, I have had season tickets to symphony and ballet seasons, but not for sports.

[DavidEB310]

Just for the record...you don't have to jeopardize one spectator event for another -- each enriches the heart and soul in its own way.<P>The pleasure I receive from a baseball game is different, yes, from the pleasure I receive from the BSO or Boston Pops, HOWEVER, each gives me distinct pleasure!!!<P>It's not necessary to condone or criticize one event over the other. It's what makes the world a planet of diversity. <P>Perhaps, you all could mix the two by listening to the wonderful theme music of "Field of Dreams," or "The Natural." Unfortunately, B.com has neither soundtrack.<P>Personally, hot summer days ARE FOR Baseball, while cold nights in front of the fire ARE PERFECT for Mozart and others.<P>Maybe that's why the Nutcracker ballet centers on Christmas? It just doesn't hold the same appeal during USA's 4th of July. <P>Hmmm...picture this...July 4th picnic...and instead of picking up a bat and softball for a friendly pick-up game with friends and family, I'll don a pair of tights and do the Waltz of the Flowers? NOT!

[shostakovich]

Hi David. I don't think anybody is dissing sports. The problem is that when sports and culture have to compete for their existence (as in schools), the arts ARE in jeopardy. The money that goes into them is beyond lopsided in favor of sports. Behave yourself on the 4th, <BR>Shos

[priya978]

It's sad, so sad, I'm going to cry.

[Brodie]

I just notcied something while I was reading this...more over towards the end of it but that's irrelevant right now. But as I was say, I noticed something.<P>A lot of you say that arts and what not are in jeopardy. But look at it really. Which are you trying to save? Your music or music in general? Music in general is at an all time high and will never let go. Music could be taken away completely from schools and it wouldn't really affect it. Might even make it a little better....you know it'll widdle all the crap out of music and only leave the good stuff....in a perfect world.<P>You'll never lose music. And you'll never lose all the orchestras...that's impossible. You know why? Because there are people like you out there. All of you would rather try to preserve an orchestra than see it go under.<P>Then again there are also people like me. And those are the people that like something basically because its not popular. and maybe losing music would bring up more of us. I know one huge reason that I love classical so much is because no one else really does. I mean I can get in a debate about jsut about anything and I can bring up a lot about classical music. We can be talking about...heroine....and I can bring up Symphonie Fantastique...we could be talking about suicide and I can bring up Beethoven. Just about any topic you can name will have its classical counterpart. <P>I also view classical more over as a counter culture. And its also an underground kind of style now. Its got a few listeners....spread all over the place....and they are the most devote people ever. I think its great. I in fact wouldn't mind if it stayed this way. I like it.<P>But the whole point is that you really can't change people's mind. All the bitching and moaning you can supply will not amount to enough of what is necessary. So we might as well accept it and relish in it if possible.<P><BR>-Brodie

[DavidEB310]

Just a BTW/FYI:<P>Bernie Williams, star Centerfielder of the New York Yankees has a classical music background. I also believe he has a degree in a Science field.<P>Bernie plays Electric Guitar in the Yanks locker-room, and a couple of the other players play in a pick-up band with him before games.<P>Bernie realizes potential and worth of both sports and music. Just goes to show the world isn't full of one-way streets.

[priya978]

Yes but is your beloved Mr. Williams and the other members of the teams helping to spread classical music to another generation, our other people in general. I don't think so. As are the orchestras and conductors who give classical music to the public's ears, as are the teacher's at schools, to teach a younger generation the art, and wonder, etc, of classical music.

[DavidEB310]

eugene,<P>You obviously continue to ignore the point that there is room enough in this world for all types of people, and all types of cultural exposure. Sports and music can co-exist without hurting the other. To consider that sports hurts classical music is pure hogwash. People make their own choices.<P>For instance, my "beloved Mr. Williams" (as you so eloquently put it) plays both classical and jazz. You claim he isn't enlightening the world with his sounds because he's a baseball player. Did you ever think that perhaps he's helping to influence his teammates and expose them to music of which they are unfamiliar, who in turn, influence their own children? <P>Children of ballplayers don't necessarily become ballplayers themselves. Some do of course, but then there is say Tim McGraw (country artist married to Faith Hill). Tim is the son of the former great reliever for both the Phillies and the Mets -- Tug McGraw.<P>Everyone makes their own choice. Perhaps you could use a role model who could help you see the third dimension of the world, instead of a single side? <p>[ 11-14-2002: Message edited by: DavidEB310 ]

[monkeymd2b]

Ahhh, the never ending debate about money and sports and music(or any other subject for that matter). The Honolulu symphony had/has money issues...I don't know what's become of them but my mom tells me they still exist. We can argue for hours on end about who deserves the money more based on what each provides for us. Yeah, those professional athletes provide me with entertainment but then I think...those underfunded medical researchers developed therapies for once uncurable diseases (like mine and many of our favorite athletes). Here's a thought, if they will most likely be going on to the pros to earn millions of $$$, why not make them get loans for their education (or give them a discount since many of them don't bother to show up to class anyway) and give that scholarship money to people entering professions less well paid (like teachers, poor talented musicians, poor med students who choose to serve in underrepresented areas). I mean, how many professional athletes do you know that entered the NFL/NBA/etc with student loans to pay off? I think there was an athlete at the univ of oregon who declined a scholarship to play football because he could pay for his education using money he made as a semi pro baseball player. Granted that money went to some other jock but still a nice gesture. <BR>While I personally would like to see money go towards things like arts and sciences in K-12 schools, I can't ignore the fact that playing sports teaching the same life skills that learning to play a musical instrument offers: discipline, responsibility, organization of time, and teamwork (for those who play in ensembles) among others. I personally intend on urging my future kids to play a musical instrument and play a sport (pref. soccer but that's my bias) and not allow them to drop the instrument to focus on sports. Sorry for the rambling but I like to write in the style of "stream of consciousness."

[DavidEB310]

And then there's those brillant researchers who spend millions on world enhancing projects like:<P><I>Why Did the Snakes Cross the Road (from ABCNEWS):</I> <BR> <A HREF="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DyeHard/dyehard021107.html" TARGET=_blank>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DyeHard/dyehard021107.html</A> <P>excerpt: <P>That may all sound a bit trivial, but it's serious science to Kimberly Andrews, a master's candidate in conservation ecology at the University of Georgia. Andrews and her faculty adviser, ecology professor Whitfield Gibbons, are up to their fangs in snakes these days, trying to answer questions that, frankly, not a lot of people have asked.<P>The research involves releasing all sorts of snakes along a section of roadway near the university's Savannah River Ecology Laboratory to see how, why and even if they are willing to try their luck at crossing about 15 feet of concrete. Andrews set up the two-year experiment, she says, because not a whole lot is known about why snakes are willing to cross a road.<P><B>Now there's some money that's not going to Sports or Music!</B><p>[ 11-14-2002: Message edited by: DavidEB310 ]

[priya978]

Something that's not sports or music, but not life-changing, or all that interesting for that matter either.

[Brodie]

Did you know our government spent $50,000 on figuring out that not all clouds have a silver lining? It took around 1 week and less than I think 30 hours of labor...Now let's do the math...That amounts to $1,670 an hour. Our government is one high priced ummmm how can I put this "lady of the night"<P><BR>-Brodie

[priya978]

See, what's the point on spending money on something that no one knows nor wants to know, useless info.

[audiogirl]

Eugene, don't knock sports until you've played one. <P>I am proud to report that my school has moved all sports practices to after-school times, which I think is appropriate. Band is still being offered during the day. We have a talented, enthusiastic band director who has truly built an amazing program from almost nothing, and the band plays at most of our sporting events. It's worth going to a basketball game just to hear our band play.