Jessica Lynch - "Hero" of the Iraq War

[piqaboo]

Originally posted by jmfryar:
Why are women so obsessively ashamed of either their bodies or appearing nude, while most men would drop clothes without a thought?

Why do you conclude its shame? :confused:

[OperaTenor]

Hi Jm, are you so sure that's the case with most men? Aside from your straw poll (which after all, is a group of your peers, i.e., similar-minded), have you queried other men who you might consider to be more conservative or straight-laced? I don't claim to be either, but it would take a lot more than a sixer to get me to put my body on public display. I doubt that $10,000 could get me to do it.

In a somewhat inibriated state, I once mooned a camrea, along with a couple of other guys. Upon seeing the picture, I pretty much swore off letting the public view me bum.

<small>[ 09-18-2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: operatenor ]</small>

[jmfryar]

Piq - what else would it be?

opera - when you speak in generalities, there's always the exception...but last I checked, there were still half naked guys painted blue at football games who you full well know would be buck naked if they thought that could get away with it...still half naked guys at the parties I go to...and still mostly men on the nude beaches in Connecticut...

On the other hand, that's not a poll I think I'll be conducting any time soon - if I'm gonna stand in a mall with a clip board asking questions, I can come up with a few better topics...

[OperaTenor]

There's a vast gulf between half-naked and all the way, IMHO. How many women at the beach in this country wearing string bikinis are willing to even take their top off for public display? Yet, they're technically >half naked. I think the same could be said for most men wearing just shorts or trunks.

I hold that there's a little Mars/Venus at work in this as well. Men tend to have a greater risk taking threshold than women, as a generalization, and therefore are more willing to expose themselves and deal with the potential for rejection.

<small>[ 09-18-2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: operatenor ]</small>

[jmfryar]

There is a vast difference between the itty-bitty bikini and nudity. Besides, if Girls Gone Wild is any evidence, just about every one of those women are willing to drop top in public at the mere mention of a camera...

How many men wear speedo's anymore? Just...ick...

I'm sure there are a thousand sociological reasons, but the simple fact is...if you went up to a hundred women, you'd get an overwhelming no response to posing nude.

If you went up to a hundred guys, you'd get a good number (majority? possibly...) that would do it without mention of money. Probably have a good number drop trou on the spot...

Take a look at the Man Show's newest promo...you have guys with their "manhood" in what looks like a narrow shoe box that registers if they become aroused while women do their best to bring them to that state...well women and a male dwarf in a blonde wig doing things to an ice cream cone...which gets one of the guys to react...

they're doing this on tv...for free...

We have a semi-annual professional meeting that hosts at least on "naked" event...it's always well attended by men...the women always complain because they're not allowed to spectate, but they also don't seem to want to participate...

[OperaTenor]

I knew it would be just a matter of time before GGW came up. Those guys hound those girls to do what they do (generally), and the ones that do are in the extreme minority. I have friends who have gone to the Colorado river while GGW was there. Huge crowds end up following them around to see who's gonna do it next. Funny there's no "Guys Gone Wild".

Re the disproportionate number of men to women on nude beaches: Here in Ca it's my understanding that the majority of the men on the nude beaches are gay(not casting any aspersions), which would in part explain why there are more men.

<small>[ 09-18-2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: operatenor ]</small>

[jmfryar]

1) who would buy GGW?
2) it's not like it's a challenge...if an attractive woman walked up to most men and noted interest in seeing them unclothed, your typical male would probably tear something getting out of it so fast...

I've been in New Orleans and Key West...there's no urging needed...it's possibly one of the only places where women take that chance...but then, it's all a part of the festivities, I suppose...

[piqaboo]

re jmfryar:
Piq - what else would it be?

Fear, jm.
Fear of being judged and found wanting,
Fear of being labeled as morally deficient (slut, "incapable of maintaining a normal relationship", etc)
fear of being assaulted and being found "responsible" for it.

Reread some old postings, and look at the comments made re women's bodies. Or try this one on for size, which I heard recently: "low ride pants are a privilege not a right". Now I think that any of the several men who nodded in agreement would in fact be quite happy to see nearly any of the women in question stark naked. Many women, especially ones who weigh more than a supermodel, look better naked than dressed. Something about the hip/waist proportion. But most women dont know that. They've heard other women criticized for their looks and flaws forever, and have no idea that naked heals a world of hurt.

I dont know why a string bikini on the beach is morally acceptable and stark naked is not, but the labels come fast and they stick. And name calling does hurt. It hurts as much as anything can.

The other message women get from cradle on is if guys "get out of control", its the woman's fault for enticing the guy(s) beyond self-control. Society interprets naked as permission to do more than look,so the price of naked ranges from just having to deal with more approaches, more persistence, etc to assault.
To add insult to injury, often the guys doing the hitting one are guys that you'd buy them clothes with your own money rather than see them naked.

[Serenity]

Piqaboo, do you mean the large walrus in the European style Speedo?

JM, have you done the nude beach scene? They are probably frequented by less-inhibited folk.

[jmfryar]

I'm not sure how to respond to you Piq other than to say...I don't know of anyone who carries the attitude that the woman "deserves" it...I think that's why so many women choose to flash and go topless at Spring break and Mardi Gras - they aren't afraid of that.

Fear is a personal thing unique to each individual. Self created and overcomable if the person chooses. But, to paraphrase several several philosophers of both sexes, if you want to know what motivates a person, find out what they're afraid of.

being labeled is a terrible thing - if you don't believe me, take a look at the thread where I was attempting to defend my chosen profession...and then understand that they were being nice and the barbs were out of affection and humor!!

You haven't lived until you've been spit on coming out of a courthouse because you were the first one they saw in a suit...

So if there are a vast number of women who choose to not go naked because of image and reprisal, then I would buy that...

Most of New York is top optional (including Central Park) so you find women topless on occasion sunning. Have I ever been on a full-nude beach? Yep...and in the words above, most of the people there are NOT people you would want to see naked from an aesthetic point of view...

But much like when people dance...sure they're not gonna be on star search next week, but they're happy and having fun, so leave 'em alone!!

[piqaboo]

Surely, which is not quite the same as being published in a national magazine spread!

[piqaboo]

jmfryar:
I've been in New Orleans and Key West...there's no urging needed...it's possibly one of the only places where women take that chance...but then, it's all a part of the festivities, I suppose...

I've also been to both and the urging to "show your tits" is continuous, and strenuous. The women travel in packs or with male friends. Many men interpret a flash as a chance to grab. Its a lot of fun if you are in the spirit, but its not some kind of innocent paradise.

[analog]

Perhaps every generation loses its innocence.
Perhaps none so flamboyantly as us boomers.
Jessica reminds us of innocence, maybe there's some general feeling of loss and that's why such an interesting thread .

I recommend to all parents a very interesting book by the name "Reviving Ophelia". It's about the pressures we put on the young, girls especially, through advertising and today's mores that Pigaboo alluded to... I think we're like the frog in a pot unaware of the gradual approach to boil.

Disintegrating values leave fallout more deadly than disintegrating atoms. (e hoffer)

<small>[ 10-02-2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: analog ]</small>

[dai bread]

Originally posted by Devin73:
OHHHHHHHHHHHH BOY! Here is the start of the media frenzy to get her in an interview. H.R.H. is you stomach turning yet??????
Devin

I don't know about H.R.H., but mine is.

[Nicole Marie]

Hi Dai-

I have my barf bad with me at all times. More so after analog's last statement: "It's a lot more wholesome here in Idaho than it was in S Florida. Wish I'd rasied my kids out here." There's problems every where, Idaho is no exception.

From disastercenter.com: "In the year 2000 the State of Idaho had a total Crime Index of 3,186.2 reported incidents per 100,000 people. For Violent Crime Idaho had a reported incident rate of 252.5 per 100,000 people. For crimes against Property, the state had a reported incident rate of 2,933.7 per 100,000 people. Idaho’s 29.7 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 29th highest."

[analog]

Sorry I made you barf, NM.

In retrospect, I am guilty of the sin of self-pity.

My apology is extended to the group.

<small>[ 10-02-2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: analog ]</small>

[Serenity]

Ho Hum...Idaho is about as safe as CT. Florida, on the other hand, is second in Total Crime Index (Arizona is #1), first in Violent Crimes, fifth in car theft, third in burglaries, seventh in rape, second in assault; only 21st in Murder (it's best score!).

Those sun-belt states just bring out the worst in people and many victims are probably the people who retire there. People in the snow belt are too busy surviving half-year. Oh wait! Even though Florida ranked badly in almost all categories, Illinois was big on robbery (#4), violence (#8), murder (#8) and assault (#8). Texas was 8th on overall crime index and ranked between 10th and 17th in all categories (a "well-rounded" state). Arizona was basically #1 in car theft, property crime, #2 in larceny, #5 in burglary. California was #7 in car theft and robbery, #9 in assault and violent crime. New York was pretty low in most categories except robbery (#3) and #12 in violent crimes but only 40th Total Crime Index (out of 50 states).

The 5 most populous states in 2000 were CA>TX>NY>FL>IL. I dunno...maybe I'll retire in Maine, although the darn 18 wheelers like to drive in the left lane! I have a feeling I'll be a wanderer when I retire!...Time to request Schubert's "Wanderer's Fantasy" on Beethoven radio.

[barfle]

About the only big plan we have when we retire is to get a motor home and scout around the country, looking for a place to settle down. I've often said that if I could figure out a way to make a living in Santa Fe, NM (very cool opera house there, but not much electronic industry), I'd be there next week. Of course, if I don't have to make a living, that removes the primary obstacle.

But don't tell anyone. I don't want it spoiled by a bunch of other old coots dragging in their ideas of retirement into a very nice community.

Is this thread adequately hijacked?

[Serenity]

Try http://www.findyourspot.com if you're looking for places to retire.

[haggis]

Is this thread adequately hijacked?

Almost.

I prepare security briefings on various destinations both within and without the U.S. for travelers almost daily. I’ve learned that crime stats are almost always misleading when discussed in generalities.

All police and Sheriff departments are required to keep statistics to report on the Uniform Crime Report annually. The raw stats are available to the public and most large police departments even post them to the Internet. If you think you are interested in a certain location you can get the raw stats on each police beat within the jurisdiction you’re thinking of settling down in. Santa Fe, unfortunately, doesn’t post their stats to the web, but if you call or email, they’ll give them to you.

If you decide to roam, you can do that with a high degree of security IF you take some sensible precautions. The first and most important thing anyone can do to avoid being a victim of a crime is just this; always remain aware of your environment.

For example, I can’t think of anywhere in North America more hazardous than Mexico, however, many thousands (millions?) of Americans flock there every year for recreation. While some report being victims of crime it’s almost always because they decided to go some where or do something that was off the normal tourist areas.

When I visited Guadalajara on a business trip last year (security survey!) I was amazed at the size of the retired permanent American community there. Someone told me that it was the largest concentrations of Americans living outside the U.S. 50K or more.

While I was there I watched a long train go by made up of flatbeds. It was loaded with RV of every description and there were people sitting at card tables play card games as the train slowly passed. My guide told me the "snow birds" from the U.S. caught the train in San Diego and took it to Guadalajara, got off then continued down the peninsular for the winter.

So, roam at will in the U.S. and probably Canada although be careful in Mexico. Who knows, you might see me there!

NOW the thread has been hijacked!!!