Unions.... For or Against?

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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby jmfryar » Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:44 pm

I've been in it...I know exactly how it looks, how far apart they are, what services they offer, the whole nine yards...like I said above, I'm doing voluntary work with the Juvenile Public Defender's office (which reminds me..I need to call them)

I've toured CJTS as well...my primary focus is Juvenile and Education Law...this is exactly what I want to do for a living, represent these kids.

As I mentioned previously, I am also friends with a woman who was a corrections officer...I probably know more about the detention centers than I want to, but then, that's where my clients will be, so I kind of need to...

The problem with developing a plan is that a spike in female juvenile crime was not an anticipated issue. There are many other factors as well - the increase in detained juveniles, the identification of other issues, the very active involvement of DCF in rooting out issues. It would be an enormous disservice to say that they are not doing anything, they are, but rather than just slap something together, they are making sure that what they develop is effective and meets the needs.

Long Lane was a HORROR SHOW that should never, ever, ever be replicated. The girls housed there would have been better off camped out in the middle of the woods. In tents. With a mass murderer stalking them.

As to intermingling, they don't. They are no more exposed to each other than if they were in separate towns. Psychiatric facilities, for instance, are lock downs - you'd have to break through doors and barriers to get to the other sex...there are liability issues beyond what you infer - what do you do with sex offenders? Can't let them NEAR a member of the opposite sex while they are receiving treatment.

I have faith in the people who are resolving the issue to approach the plan carefully in order to put something effective in place.

CJTS is SO not the answer though...it's just a prison...there are states out there with far more effective programs that we could be modeling and are not.
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby Nicole Marie » Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:53 pm

Christ, finally you and I agree. No offence Mike, you and I know each other... But if you weren't such a lawyer that whole conversation could have gone so much smoother.
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby jmfryar » Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:55 pm

We agree because we are two rational adults who have come to an understanding after communicating...

we didn't start there though...

so there!

:p
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby Serenity » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:04 pm

Unions:

Nay = 6
Yea = 2
Abstain = 3

The supervisor for the Union Of Road Construction Workers called the meeting to order.

"We have agreed on a new deal with the state. We'll no longer have to work FOUR days a week!"

"HOORAY!!!" the crowd cheered.

"We will quit work at 4PM and not 5PM!"

"HOORAY!!!" the crowd roared.

"We don't have to be in until 11AM!"

"HOORAY!!!" the crowd thundered.

"And now, even though 99% of the roads in the country are blocked by orange barrels, we'll only have to work on Wednesdays!!"

Silence.

A voice from the back of the room asks, "You mean, EVERY Wednesday?"

<small>[ 10-23-2003, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: Serenity ]</small>
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby bignaf » Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:23 pm

I'm against unions for the egotistic reason that they put more obstacles in the way of composers than help them. composers are independent so they don't need a union. however the musicians unions make sure musicians are really highly paid and they fuss about too-long rehearsals and too-LOUD rehearsals.

<small>[ 10-24-2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: bignaf ]</small>
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby dai bread » Sat Oct 25, 2003 9:14 am

Originally posted by EJA:
Shouldn't killing, as in no longer breathing, be covered by murder laws?
Like lynching was? Sorry EJA, but you left yourself wide open there. I don't suppose for a minute that you'd lynch anybody, but plenty of Southern Statesiders did.

I'll finish reading this thread and post a few more comments. We have a long history of unionism in this country, and even the dreaded S*c**l*s*d M*d*c*n*.
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby dai bread » Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:04 am

I am a strong believer in Unions, and if I were younger I would be a member, but with retirement only a matter of months away it's not worth the NZD 250 pa. sub. My reasons are simply historical, reinforced by what happened during the years of restructuring brought on by Rogernomics, which I have referred to before.

Up until 1991 we had compulsory unionism here. You could opt out only as a conscientious objector, and that option carried with it all the opprobrium that its military counterpart did.

The result was that as has been noted by other posters, the unions got fat and lazy, and became vehicles for all manner of dodges, sometimes not connected with the membership. I was mostly concerned with clerical workers in those days, and hence the Clerical Workers' Union. In roughly 30 years, I saw a union rep 3 times, and on one of those he was distributing seditious literature about a rugby tour by South Africans. The secretary of the northern division of that union was one of our more rabid Maori separatists. In this country, clerical workers are almost exclusively white, and female at that; in other words, the very people he wanted to drive into the sea. Eventually the members rebelled and he was voted out of office. Without an income stream he has faded away.

In 1991 the Employment Contracts Act was rammed through Parliament. It made union membership voluntary, and members left in droves. So did their benefits, and we still haven't got them all back.

However, the unions didn't fade away. They took stock, cleaned up their act, and started acting in the interests of their members. The result is a vigorous union movement with steadily increasing membership.

During Rogernomics, some employers had a field day. Unemployment was about 15% of the workforce, so there was a huge pool of unemployed and a very enfeebled union movement. One person I came across wanted someone to run a rest home for $8 per hour. Others wanted a qualified accountant for $10 per hour. Penal rates for overtime & weekend work are pretty well non-existant. Even now, when things have settled down, people like immigrants with limited English still get a rough deal.

So I'm sorry, Statesiders, but unions are essential. The problem lies in keeping them honest. For this purpose, voluntary membership is probably the best answer, though that raises the problem of freeloading, where benefits negotiated by unions are passed on to non-members. We're still working on that one.
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby dai bread » Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:36 am

It occurred to me after I'd written that last effort that the U.S. already has voluntary unionism. That being the case, I have to fall back on legislation and State policing, but that's really not a good answer.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby Serenity » Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:49 am

If you haven't the strength to impose your own terms upon life, you must accept the terms it offers you. ~T.S.Eliot

The power to do good is also the power to do harm. ~Milton Friedman

Power doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt power. ~William Gaddis

Whenever there is authority, there is a natural inclination to disobedience. ~Thomas Haliburton

What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his own soul? ~ Bible

The flexible overcome the adamant, the yielding overcome the forceful. ~Lao Tzu

In a hierarchy every employee rises to their level of incompetence. ~Laurence Peter

No emperor has the power to dictate to the heart. ~Johann Von Schiller

Authority founded on injustice is never of long duration. ~Seneca
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Re: Unions.... For or Against?

Postby dai bread » Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:32 pm

"All power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"- Lord Acton. (and Robert Mugabe.)
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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