How would you guys feel?

[treebeau]

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
Not funny treebeau.

Well, you know me.
Even self deprecating humor, when poorly delivered, is not humorous.

Regards,
Tim B.

[Shapley]

Nicole,

RE:<<That would be nice Shapely but you forget that doctors get a kick back from Viagra when they perscribe it.>>

I don't know that they do, although I've heard it rumoured. It is my understanding that such kickbacks, if that is what they are, are illegal. But then, so is writing a prescription without seeing the patient.

My stepson, who has Cerebral Palsy, has been on several medications for years, some for the greater part of his life (he is now 25, and no, he does not take Viagra). His doctor insists on seeing him every six months, even when there is no change in his condition, if for no other reason than to meet the legal requirements for writing his prescriptions. She cannot write prescriptions for patients she does not see regularly, which is logical, if the requirement for prescriptions is to have any meaning. We have had several doctors over the years, and all of them have insisted that they must do likewise. We have never had a prescription written by a doctor who was not familiar with his condition and had seen him within six months of writing it.

I assume those requirements are Federal, but I could be mistaken.

V/R
Shapley

[dai bread]

Herewith a little story to illustrate to you people who live in big countries why we who live in little countries like socialised medicine.

For the last 13 years or so, we have had an "epidemic" of Type B meningococal disease in this country. I put "epidemic" in quotes because the numbers aren't all that large, but they're way above what anybody else gets.

The disease develops very fast; in a matter of a few hours, and it strikes the very young in particular. The lucky ones die. There are two children in the local hospital now with the disease; both have been severely mutilated to remove gangrenous tissue. Loss of limbs in whole or in part. One kid has even lost the tip of his nose. Both children are under a year old.

It was decided that a vaccine was needed to combat this disease. Much of the necessary research had already been done, because the Dutch have the same or a similar strain of the baccillus, as do the Norwegians. Nevertheless, the comment was made that "it wasn't economic to develop a vaccine just for New Zealand".

The Government paid up. The vaccination program will cost us upwards of NZD 200 000 000. I think I'm safe in saying that there are only 400 people in the country who disapprove of this expenditure. They are the anti-vaccinationists. (There is always someone who is against, whatever the topic).

[piqaboo]

Dai,
we have an "orphan drug" program in the US that helps re-imburse companies that develop drugs etc with small potential markets.

Unfortunately, even with that incentive, vaccines in general get neglected.

Vaccines are very high risk for the companies that produce them. The clinical trials as a result are extremely costly as well. The biggest risk is that vaccines are given to healthy people, not to sick ones like most pharmaceuticals. Instead of "fixing what is broken" as barfle describes it, they are an attempt to enhance what isnt broken. Millions may receive a vaccine safely but a single adverse reaction can bankrupt the manufacturer.

I'm wondering if in addition to coughing up the dough for R&D and clinical trials etc, your govt is also insuring the mfger in some way?

BTW - depending on what kind of vaccine was developed, there may be a couple hundred animal rights folks agin it too.

[barfle]

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
Barfle, you are projecting that same attitude of the insurance company I am questioning. You automaticaly think that b/c I take BC I am taking it to fix something that works fine. Well your wrong. I have to pay full cost for something that I NEED. My insurance company is there to help me pay for my health care cost and they don't. So what f*&k. And I know plenty of men that get perscriptions for Viagra and their insurance pays for it. If you are a 40 year old and say hey doc, I can't get it up any more. No one will question you.

How many times do I have to put it in writing that I DON'T think it is right how insurance companies work before you get it? simply because I understand it doesn't mean I endorse it. This is reminding me of the discussion about downloading music about two years ago, when I was accused wrongly of saying it was OK to steal music. To paraphrase you, you automatically think because I'm able to explain the situation that it's my position as well. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and I'm surprised you don't know that.

I may not have ovaries, etc., but I know many, many people who do. I am quite aware that those don't always work the way nature intended, and hormone therapy is often the best answer. So I'd appreciate it if the accusations would stop, please.

Originally posted by RC:
I love this idea of suing someone to make them personally responsible...

Well, if they really are responsible, they should accept the responsibility. I'm not fully aware of OT's issues, and I'm not taking any sides so far, but when someone causes damage to another, they should accept responsibility to repair that damage. Sometimes that's impossible because of the nature of the damage, but I feel that's a different discussion (trying not to hijack this thread again). If they don't voluntarily accept that responsibility, then the courts are available to decide liability and to impose penalties.

I agree that there are frivolous lawsuits all over the place, and even if someone is blinded, it would be an extraordinary set of circumstances to award them much over a million dollars.

Originally posted by piqaboo:
I see your point re broken/not broken, barfle. She however was broken.

As I noted, my personal opinion, which appears to differ from that of the insurance companies, is that theraputic drugs should normally be covered, recreational ones should not be, although you should also be allowed to negotiate any coverage you want.

[monkeymd2b]

$70/month for birth control?!? Damn! Are you taking the gold plated pills? Clearly I didn't pay much attention to the cost of such things during my OB/GYN rotation. And I complain when it costs $30 for mine (my sample provider didn't have any). Actually, the company that makes my pills has a special discount program so I only pay $23.
I wonder if I could make a patient prove to me that they need viagra. The research that led to the development of this drug was done at my medical school (the dr then moved to UCLA and published his results under that school's name) and it was another one of those drugs developed for a different reason but happened to help with other conditions (like minoxidil - developed for heart disease and found to cause hair growth). Apparently men who take viagra have blue vision when on the drug.

[RC]

DMLR will aggressively highlight the different positions the Senate candidates have on this position and will continue informing the entire state of South Carolina about the access-to-healthcare crisis they are facing. Without meaningful medical liability reform, the citizens of South Carolina will suffer as patients of a healthcare system being destroyed by greedy personal injury lawyers, and at the end of the day, we are all patients.

Bend.com

barfl, here's one for you. You MUST read this one:
Centre Daily

"Slam the brakes on our out-of-control legal system"
Point being, I agree with barfle. Doctors, insurance companies, and people who make stupid claims should be held responsible for their actions.

Doing so requires a law suit or pummeling.

Seems like focusing on "slamming the brakes on out-of-control legal system" is sort of attacking the wrong end of the problem isn't it?

It's down right anti-American...lol just kidding folks, dont' get riled now.

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by barfle:

Originally posted by RC:[b]
I love this idea of suing someone to make them personally responsible...

Well, if they really are responsible, they should accept the responsibility. I'm not fully aware of OT's issues, and I'm not taking any sides so far, but when someone causes damage to another, they should accept responsibility to repair that damage. Sometimes that's impossible because of the nature of the damage, but I feel that's a different discussion (trying not to hijack this thread again). If they don't voluntarily accept that responsibility, then the courts are available to decide liability and to impose penalties.
[/b]

The osteo who caused the trouble did it by attempting to rectify complications from a circumcision and attempted hypospadeas repair(I draw the line on details here). The MD's my parents and I consulted with later refused to go so far as to allege the osteo was liable for malpractice, so the bastard was never really held responsible.
(Here's a concept for ya: If you get a botched oil change, you usually get some kind of free subsequent service to compensate for the trouble - out of the owner's pocket. How about if health care providers have the same kind of customer service guarantee, without involving lawsuits? My opinion is we'll never see the likes because the insurance industry and medical lobbies are too strong to allow that kind of accountability. )
The stricture I'm left with is chronic and constantly needs active attention, be it surgical or theraputic(you don't want to know!!!) to keep me in the appearance that nothing's wrong. Were I to rely solely on the insurance coverage I've had through my employer, they'll cover the surgeries, but they won't cover the "tools" I need at home to keep me OUT of the hospital.

BTW, I'm not so naive as to think there is any "free" health care. We pay for it, whether it's through taxes or insurance premiums. What I believe is that, even with our bloated, corrupted bureaucracy of a government, some form of national health service would be cheaper and more fairly applied than our current system. Health insurance companies have one goal: PROFIT. They give a rat's patootabout your or my welfare. Anyone who buys into the notion that they actually care is sitting between Alice and the Mad Hatter.

<small>[ 07-13-2004, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Shapley]

OT,

RE:<<Here's a concept for ya: If you get a botched oil change, you usually get some kind of free subsequent service to compensate for the trouble - out of the owner's pocket. How about if health care providers have the same kind of customer service guarantee, without involving lawsuits?>>

Okay, so you want free surgery courtesy of the surgeon who botched the first, paid one. Hope you don't mind if I pass on that.

V/R
Shapley

[OperaTenor]

You don't suppose it might be incentive to do it right the first time?

I'd like to think the ones who screw up with any kind of consistency couldn't afford to stay in the profession after paying for hospitalizations out of their own pocket.
They're out there screwing up right now, but they're getting away with it more due to the protections afforded them through malpractice insurance.

<small>[ 07-13-2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[piqaboo]

originally posted by barfle:
So I'd appreciate it if the accusations would stop, please.

Well, dang - who we gonna pick on then?? :p :p :p

[RC]

This is going to look like an attack but it isn't. I just don't get where you're coming from Shapely:

RE:<<Abuser #1: 25 year old on Viagra
Abuser #2: Medical doctor perscribing Viagra to a non-impotent 25 year old
Abuser #3: Insurance company that pays a claim for a 25 year old for Viagra without investigating the claim.>>

True, but the one who'll be held accountable (i.e. sued) if the 25 year-old develops medical problems will be the "greedy" drug company who sold the drug to the pharmacist, who accepted the prescription from the doctor and the payment from the insurance company and gave the drug to the 25 year old.

Now, who in this scenario is not in a position know the drug was being taken by that particular twenty-five year-old, or the circumstances of his taking it?

The drug company advertises Viagra (like most other prescription drugs you see advertised on TV, magazines, etc.) with the closing line "ask your doctor if Viagra is right for you." That is, after all, what we are paying the doctor for. If he is not capable of determining whether or not the patient is a candidate for the treatment, he should not be putting his name on that prescription
[B]

and then:

[B]RE:<<Here's a concept for ya: If you get a botched oil change, you usually get some kind of free subsequent service to compensate for the trouble - out of the owner's pocket. How about if health care providers have the same kind of customer service guarantee, without involving lawsuits?>>
Okay, so you want free surgery courtesy of the surgeon who botched the first, paid one. Hope you don't mind if I pass on that.

So here is what I'm confused about; In the first instance, you're mad because the responsible party is NOT held accountable and in the second instance, you don't think the responsible party SHOULD be held accountable?

What makes the difference in your mind?

<small>[ 07-13-2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

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<small>[ 07-13-2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: lliam ]</small>

[barfle]

Originally posted by piqaboo:
Well, dang - who we gonna pick on then?? :p :p :p

Try the guy with the high-maintenance willy.

I apologize. Really. Honest. I told you it was none of my business. I really DON'T want to know. More than I don't want to hear the "Revenge Aria."

[barfle]

OT, it's hard to blame your parents for their goof-ups while you were a kid. I've told mine several times since I became an adult (in the legal sense, anyway) that I didn't come with a manual.

I would guess the best you could hope for is the development of a permanent repair.

Of course insurance companies are in business for the profit. So are hotels, motorcycle parts houses, and airlines. Even the businesses that aren't "for profit" have to avoid bankruptcy, though. The idea, of course, is that competition would drive up quality and drive down costs, but now that there's so much government intervention, the basic laws of economics need not apply.

[piqaboo]

[quote]Originally posted by barfle:
[b] [quote]Originally posted by piqaboo:
[b] Well, dang - who we gonna pick on then??

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by barfle:
1) OT, it's hard to blame your parents for their goof-ups while you were a kid. I've told mine several times since I became an adult (in the legal sense, anyway) that I didn't come with a manual.

I would guess the best you could hope for is the development of a permanent repair.

2) Of course insurance companies are in business for the profit. So are hotels, motorcycle parts houses, and airlines. Even the businesses that aren't "for profit" have to avoid bankruptcy, though. The idea, of course, is that competition would drive up quality and drive down costs, but now that there's so much government intervention, the basic laws of economics need not apply.

1) I don't blame my parents. They made the best decision they could given the information and advice they had. They also were of the ilk that doctors posessed God-like infallability. I've learned they are very much human.
I doubt there will be a breakthrough in my lifetime. My problem has become something quite unique, so I seriously doubt much in the way of energy or resources will be spent on it. As long as no one knows there's something wrong with me unless I tell them, I'm happy.

2) Hey, we agree on something! Just the part about insurance companies and profit, mind you.
Yes, most businesses are in it for profit.
There is one aspect which you fail to consider: where a sophisticated, highly complex "product" such as health care is concerned, not only does competition drive up quality, but it also promotes cost-cutting products and techniques, usually at the sacrifice of "customer service". The perfect example is the transition from the philosophy of remaining inpatient until well, to the present "treat 'em & street 'em" mentality of today.

However, when it comes to my health and my life, I'd rather they had a higher concern than their bottom line. I want my daughter to grow up in a society that will spare no cost to insure her quality of life, and as long as profit is a concern, that will not be the case.

<small>[ 07-13-2004, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Shapley]

RC,

I'm tired of these personal attacks. Not the post, mind you, that's all well and good. Please stop calling me "Shapely". My wife is the shapely one.

The difference is not in the concept of holding the responsible party accountable, but the remedy. If a surgeon botches a surgery on me the first time, I'm not about to let him have at it a second time, regardless of cost. I'll take the money and go to the surgeon down the street.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

V/R
Shapley

[RC]

OOOOPS! Sorry about the "figure" of speach but I'm sure yours is fine as well.

Now I get it! I wonder if I was the only one scratching me head - likely I suppose.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by lliam:
You'd call me crazy, right?

No. Gullible.

We've seen this scam before. It isn't new, or ancient, or chinese, or magic. Last time it came through it was ancient Indian lore, time before that it was ancient Egyptian.

Spare me.