Moral Values?

[Serenity]

Apparently, Bush won the presidency based on moral and religious values, supported by a large christian and catholic base. Here is a link to an article written in the Boston Globe this morning:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/11/04/religion_based_voters_provided_critical_edge/

So, despite the recent rash of disappearing threads on the bulletin board, I thought I would open up a thread where people could post their views on what constitutes something good and moral...and where they draw the line.

I feel it is important since the nation is split on this issue. When viewpoints begin to alter the law to the point where I feel they impinge on my freedom of choice, there is something inherently wrong and narrow about it. Morality and ethics should be broader in scope than religion, they should encompass the views of people practicing different religions (or secular views).

[RC]

I think the "experts" STILL have it wrong. It isn't the liberal's in OUR government that terrified the evangelical religious right into action.

I believe they see Islam as an attacking evil. (Sorry, but I think some posters on this board see it that way too).

They don't understand what's happening in the world - what "provocation" could wreak such havoc - it must be the inherent evil of the religion the terrorists espouse.

They don't understand that the terrorists themselves are an evil born of many ills of which we may or may not have any control.

Since they do at heart, feel that it is the Islamic religion to blame, then liberals are equally guilty for their proclaimed religious tolerance. Bush on the other hand, is clear and concise as always "...you are either with us or against us." His base will follow him anywhere. Is the confusion intentional?

The terrorists proclaim jihad and in the name of a Christian God, the religious right respond in kind.

Moral Valules in this instance has nothing to do with OUR values but the terrorists. It is the democratic party candidates tolerance in general that is being attacked.

<small>[ 11-04-2004, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

[RC]

wait a minute, I'm not finished!

- a backlash against "political correctness" that has, in kind, perversed itself into blind faith not in God but in a mere man. A man who promises to thwart the evil avengers wherever they are.

- a pedulum swing whose sole cause is an ignorance of circumstances.

That would explain why "moral values" trumps "national security" at a time when we are at war in Iraq and supposedly at war on terrorists.

Why DO they feel as if they are being patronized? Because they REALLY just don't get it.
IMNSHO

<small>[ 11-04-2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

[Serenity]

Nostradamus predicted that the next World War would involve the Islamic crescent, spreading from the Middle East into Southeast Asia. Looks like we are headed that way.

I don't follow some of your statements. I don't see Islam as inherently evil. I think the terrorists use the religion as an excuse. I think that acting out of fear is bad too. Am I a liberal because I live in Massachusetts and consider myself as attempting to be tolerant of other points of view? I have problems understanding some of the actions of the Religious Right as much as the supposed terrorism in the name of Islam. Religious duty should not be used as an excuse for political intolerance.

[OperaTenor]

Ah, but it dovetails very nicely with the PNAC agenda(oops, wrong thread?). They can blur the line between "Christian" values and "American" values and then ally an entire constituency to their cause. Is morality a liberal or conservative concept? Is it moral to be tolerant and forgiving, or to be persecute and prosecute others, simply because they don't have the same value system we do, regardless of whether or not they causing anyone else any harm by having those different values?

I was taught the two greatest teachings of Christianity were to love God with all my soul and mind, and to love my neighbor as myself. It doesn't look to me like love is at the top of the "Christian" Right's list of objectives.

It's really hard to express love through fear and repression.

[RC]

Serenity, you followed my statements precisely but you are applying it to yourself. Check the very first sentence again.

[funkymike]

Ok, I consider myself someone who you would call on the "Christian Right". Often Christ has been taken out of context when he said, "turn the other cheek". While I do believe in forgiving an individual of sins committed against you, I do not believe in allowing lives of innocent people to be slaughtered in the name of "love your enemies". This type of thinking would have wiped out every last Jew in Europe during WWII.

I believe that when great injustices have been done to our fellow human beings, we have to step in and help them with what has been given to this nation. If not us, who?

The bottom line is, the majority of the Islamic based Governmental systems are incapable of even grasping the meaning of the word "tolerant". To them, we are ALL infidels deserving of death. Not all of their arguements do I disagree with. Such as the putrid immorality being spewed through America and around the world from the entertainment industry. For this, they believe America to be extremely immoral and weak. Why wouldn't they believe this. What they don't realize is that there is another America. They saw this America displayed by the thousands of new enlisted service men that volunteered to go to war right after 9/11.

This second America is the America that I want. This second America is the America that I want my children to come to know and love. This is the America in red across the nation, although there are many more millions scattered across the blue states stuck in limbo between socialism and capitalism. There is a great divide and it starts with morality. The "if it feels good, do it" generation has produced the most self centered, weak, and hatred of America that we have ever seen. Why? Because we are self-seeking. Only those who believe that WE do NOT have all of the answers, can see how deficient we are as human beings. We need someone greater. We need Christ...


Just a thought or two...

[shostakovich]

"Moral values" refers to mores, or customs, of a community. At least that's what I recall from Soc 101. In that case moral values differ from time to time, place to place. "Morality" is different in San Francisco from what it is in Toledo, Wilmington or Mongomery. And in each of those places it's different now from what it was 50 years ago. There are very few uniform "American values". I think many people use "moral values" and really mean "OUR moral values", and groups who differ are not "moral". I guess my point up to here is to see how many people use the word "morality" the way I do.

If so, the "moral" vote for Bush was a vote for what people see as Bush's morality. Bush's (or insert almost any politician's name) morality is that of a campaigner: win at all costs, appeal to the audience you are addressing at the time, get good photo ops, con the public. Bush has proven to be a marvelous campaigner. I'm totally unimpressed with his leadership. His program (2000-03) has been screw the poor, screw the budget, screw the environment, screw anybody who disagrees, and finish dad's war in Iraq. This seems at odds with my concept of "Christian morality". Maybe it's my own morality that's out of whack, but I'm content with it and wouldn't be worried too much about Judgement Day, even if I believed in it.

However, we have a new beginning now. My disgust with Bush (2000-03) can be mitigated by what he DOES (not SAYS he's doing) in 2005-08. Hoping, but not expecting,improvement. What will he do to heal the divide, to reach across the partisan boundary? He has to do a little more than "Come aboard for my agenda".
Shos, waiting

[piqaboo]

hello funkymike!

[Serenity]

Originally posted by RC:
Serenity, you followed my statements precisely but you are applying it to yourself. Check the very first sentence again.

This sentence?
- a backlash against "political correctness" that has, in kind, perversed itself into blind faith not in God but in a mere man. A man who promises to thwart the evil avengers wherever they are.

Do you mean that the Religious Right has incorrectly directed itself away from what is right by putting its faith in Bush instead of God?

[Serenity]

Welcome to the bulletin board Funkymike. I am glad that there was a thread that you found important enough to merit posting a reply. I agree with your point of view for the most part. I think that the religion of Islam is intolerant of other religions from the angle that it considers itself the only true religion (the others are incorrect in their approach). I may be wrong about this point, I'm no expert. I can see your disgust about the entertainment industry "spewing immorality"; it is about as skewed as our news coverage of the Middle East as a bunch of hostile fanatics. I'm sure both views are slanted and incorrect. Please see my next post.

[Serenity]

Shos, you are in essence correct. Morality comes from the etymoogical root referring to Custom. Morality is a system of ideas referring to right and wrong or the quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct. Morals are either habits of conduct or rules to live by (even laws), with reference to standards of right and wrong.

I believe that our disagreements stem from the principles we are basing our morals on. In this truly Christian nation, the Bible is the source for most people. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as keep this in mind when discussing something morally relevant between us. However, I believe that there are universal codes of morality that encompass Christian definitions of goodness as well as other religious principles of good and proper behavior. For example, the Buddhist path to "what ails us" is the eightfold path of having: the right views, the right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.

If you can apply a principle of "behavioral goodness" from any system of belief to any situation of interaction between human beings, without offending any party involved, I would consider that a universally good and effective custom.

[OperaTenor]

Serenity,

How about love God with all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself? I'd say those pretty much fit the bill.

JMHO.

[GreatCarouser]

Welcome FunkyMike!
A few thoughts:" I think that the religion of Islam is intolerant of other religions from the angle that it considers itself the only true religion (the others are incorrect in their approach)." Perhaps...

"We need someone greater. We need Christ..." Perhaps...
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" John 14: 6.
If the phrase 'cometh unto the Father' can be understood as the attainment of salvation, or Heaven, or some other valuable or exalted state then can the above quotation from the New Testament be viewed as a statement of tolerance?
tolerance~ The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

"Say what you will about the Ten Commandments, you must always come back to the pleasant fact that there are only ten of them."
H. L. Mencken
Any more would have been too confusing, Mr. Mencken. One need only look at a world where the slaughter of innocents has become a 'viable solution'for many people to understand that even those ten have their 'exceptions'; those moments when expediency demands we forget the 'rules'because they no longer 'work'.

Or maybe it is our understanding of this world that needs fixing? After all we claim our codes and laws are 'divinely inspired'. If that is so then why all the exceptions? Is it really that they don't work or do we fail in our application of them? If man is inherently good then why do we need other men to tell/show us how to be good?
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity has made them good."
H. L. Mencken


I don't claim to know what is right or wrong here. I just know that wherever one looks; in America, Palestine, Israel, Iraq, Africa,Asia,Russia, one sees the slaughter of innocents. People of conscience have to find a better way.

[OperaTenor]

"Going to church doesn't make a person any more a Christian than does going to a garage make them an automobile." - Billy Sunday

[RC]

I believe that when great injustices have been done to our fellow human beings, we have to step in and help them with what has been given to this nation. If not us, who?

Hey FunkyMike, welcome.
You have a lot to say and you say it with passion and conviction.

I'm going to assume you are talking about Iraq in your comments about great injustices and how we should help.

But then you continue on to speak of Islamic based governments. Did you know that the government of Iraq was secular? Very rare in the middle east.

I'm guessing that you probably did not know that so then I had to re-read your next statement carefully:

The bottom line is, the majority of the Islamic based Governmental systems are incapable of even grasping the meaning of the word "tolerant". To them, we are ALL infidels deserving of death.

The use of the word "majority" and the phrase "bottom line" in reference to a very subjective term (tolerant), is interesting. I make that mistake often but what it indicates is that you are passing opinion as fact i.e., "bottom line". Using the term majority requires real mathmatical calculations applied in this case, to an undefined term.

(please forgive me if I sound patronizing, it is impossible to avoid and still make the point)

Since you probably didn't know Iraq was not an Islamic based government, I have to also assume that even if you had a clear definition for "tolerance", you probably would not have the numbers for the calculation right.

If I have it completely wrong and you were NOT refering to Iraq, then to whom?
I wouldn't argue that the Iraqi people weren't suffering under Saddam Hussein. I WOULD argue that the entire middle east does not need saving from Islam. That would be like saying the American Indians and the Australian Aborigine needed saving from their culture, aka hegimony.

The middle east is a little more complicated than that. You can't point your finger and find the definitive "problem".

Normally, it really doesn't matter if you have the facts completely correct but you seem to feel that your undefined majority is bent on killing you! So, in defending yourself against an undefined attacker, who do you aim at?

I am very passionate about my beliefs as well. It can be a dangerous thing and I recognize it in myself as well as in you. I get fact checked all the time... It helps keep a balance.

As far as being considered an infidel by a Muslim,it bothers me as much as being labeled a heathen by a Christian. There is no doubt in my mind that I would be both to some and so would you. THAT is fact.

<small>[ 11-05-2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

[RC]

Serenity, yes ma'am, in essence. According to their own faith. They are not looking to GOD but to GWB.
IMO...obviously.

Sorry that was so complicated, the light bulb came on WHILE I was typing and I'm a bear of such little brain that I had to type fast to keep it from slipping away.

<small>[ 11-05-2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

[RC]

OK FunkyMike, I'm really going to hammer now :

Not all of their arguements do I disagree with. Such as the putrid immorality being spewed through America and around the world from the entertainment industry.

This is the America in red across the nation, although there are many more millions scattered across the blue states stuck in limbo between socialism and capitalism. There is a great divide and it starts with morality

Think about those two comments for a second...

Do you subscribe to cable? Are you a patron of theater? Buy magazines, CD's, books etc?
Money does not grow on trees, the entertainment industry is entertaining someone!
If not you, then millions of your fellow countrymen.

Capitalism: 1. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

You then continue on to promote capitalism and condemn the "blue states" for espousing socialism.

Socialism: 1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

So maybe, what you meant by socialism is the redistribution of wealth through welfare: 2. A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor.

Is it Christian to turn your back on the needy?

While I do believe in forgiving an individual of sins committed against you, I do not believe in allowing lives of innocent people to be slaughtered in the name of "love your enemies".

I believe that when great injustices have been done to our fellow human beings, we have to step in and help them with what has been given to this nation. If not us, who?

I guess not.

Hey, I may not have all the answers, but I believe Jesus would probably have liked for his followers to make a sincere effort.

Blanket condemnation and assertions unsupported by evidence makes me feel like you think you DO know the answers. Have you stopped searching so quickly?

<small>[ 11-05-2004, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

[RC]

I just read this and thought it appropriate:

... As a matter of fact, no president should ever try to impose religion on our society. The great... the great tradition of America is one where people can worship the way they want to worship.

And if they choose not to worship, you're just as patriotic as your neighbor. That is an essential part of why we are a great nation. And I am glad people of faith voted in this election. I'm glad...

And I don't think you ought to read anything into the politics, the moment, about whether or not this nation will become a divided nation over religion. I think the great thing that unites us is the fact you can worship freely if you choose, and if you... you don't have to worship.

And if you're a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim, you're equally American. That is... that is such a wonderful aspect of our society, and it is strong today and it will be strong tomorrow.

[Serenity]

When Pope Gregory defined the seven deadly sins that we should avoid, he also included a counter-balancing set of values that we should espouse and adopt. These are:

1. Faith is belief in the right things (including the virtues!).
2. Hope is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail.
3. Charity is concern for, and active helping of, others.
4. Fortitude is never giving up.
5. Justice is being fair and equitable with others.
6. Prudence is care of and moderation with money.
7. Temperance is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed.


The first three are Spiritual Virtues, the last four are Natural Virtues. The Natural Virtues had already been defined by Greek philosophers, while the Spiritual Virtues are a slight variation on St. Paul's trio of Love, Hope and Faith (strange how love has disappeared!).

There are also a number of other sets of seven virtues, including:

The Seven Contrary Virtues which are specific opposites to the Seven Deadly Sins:
Humility against pride,
Kindness against envy,
Abstinence against gluttony,
Chastity against lust,
Patience against anger,
Liberality against envy, and
Diligence against sloth.

The Seven Corporal Works of Mercy are a medieval list of things you can do to help others:
feed the hungry,
give drink to the thirsty,
give shelter to strangers,
clothe the naked,
visit the sick,
minister to prisoners, and
bury the dead.

The Seven Bushido Virtues:
Right decisions, Valor, Benevolence, Respect, Honesty, Honor, and Loyalty.

So what?
If you follow the virtues, you will be seen as a good person who is to be trusted. If you assume and act as if others follow the virtues, then they are more likely to do so.

You can also be seen as being bold and daring if you break the virtues. Many modern groups (most notably youth) deliberately form their own identity by going against the values of others, so be aware of the other person's real values