Red Indians?

[lliam]

Guys, a friend and I where chatting yesterday evening about different subjects. How this came up I can't remember but he said, North American Indians don't have, facial or body hair. Is this true? :confused:

[OperaTenor]

Nope. They tend to be light on body hair, but not devoid of it. Very similar to Asian characteristics, from whom it is theorized they descended. Ir you look at 19th century photos of American Indians(I refer to those as they are probably easy to Google), some of them have goatees and/or mustaches.

[lioness]

true, OT.

my buddy used to shave his eyebrows when mourning death or going to a serious "battle" over something.

[RC]

I have never known a non-mixed blood Native American Indian with facial or noticable body hair. I knew a kid growing up who was supposedly full blood Arapahoe but surprise!, he had pale blue eyes. (I bet his Mom had some esplainin' to do). Regardless, he never grew facial hair.

Almost all the Indians I knew were either Arapahoe or Shoshone. Most of the men generally wear their hair long as do most the women (some traditions they try to hang onto). Blue-black hair like ravens plume so you'd notice if they had lots of body hair.

What a weird topic.

[RC]

lioness,
I assume your buddy is Native American, do you know what tribe? Really none of my business, just curiosity 'cause if I remember correctly, you're out west (Denver?) so I was thinking maybe this was a Southwest Indian practice (Hopi maybe?).

I don't remember any eyebrow shaving where I grew up. Denver is just a few hundred miles south but I think the culture's really begin to change and mix about there as you head south into New Mexico and Arizona.

I'm making this up as I go, can you tell?

[OperaTenor]

My copy of Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee(excellent book!) has photos of Ely Parker(Donehogawa - Seneca chief), Ouray and Quinkent(Ute), all with facial hair.

BTW, I feel that book should be mandatory reading for all Americans.

[lioness]

Originally posted by RC:
lioness,
I assume your buddy is Native American, do you know what tribe? Really none of my business, just curiosity 'cause if I remember correctly, you're out west (Denver?) so I was thinking maybe this was a Southwest Indian practice (Hopi maybe?).

I don't remember any eyebrow shaving where I grew up. Denver is just a few hundred miles south but I think the culture's really begin to change and mix about there as you head south into New Mexico and Arizona.

I'm making this up as I go, can you tell?

Lakota & Blackfoot

[lioness]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
My copy of Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee(excellent book!) has photos of Ely Parker(Donehogawa - Seneca chief), Ouray and Quinkent(Ute), all with facial hair.

BTW, I feel that book should be mandatory reading for all Americans.

phenominal book. In The Spirit of Crazy Horse was another.

[RC]

I got to poking around the internet trying to find info on the subject. There wasn't much bud I did find one really neat site that described the differences in features of Native American's. Seems that there are different regions where they cropped up with facial hair and some regions where they never did. (Northwest area=facial hair, for instance).
Lots of speculation about where it came from but there were European features associated with the Native American's that did have facial hair and Asian features associated with those that didn't.

Interesting.

Apparently it's a politically sensitive topic for many reasons including the whole theory that Native American's are, well, native. ???

PS OT, I'll second that about Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee.

Seems strange now but we learned Indian hand signals, dances, learned about Indian history and culture, and made moccasins and beeded clothes in art class with Mrs. Red Owl. I thought every kid in the US did too. It would be neat if they did I think. It wasn't until I left the area that I realized what a shame it was that Native American's were so few and far between.

[lioness]

Originally posted by RC:
Apparently it's a politically sensitive topic for many reasons including the whole theory that Native American's are, well, native. ???

.... you have no idea how deep it runs

[Marye]

In Canada our native people are called First Nations. They are "bands" not tribes and have representatives in government. Native people have their own television station (which I get on my TV and have seen some very good movies) and I recently listened to the CBC radio in Nunavut (Inuit people) - on the internet. When I think it is cold here, I listen to Nunavut weather and give my head a shake.

Although, one report was rain in January (never have they seen this before) and bears roaming about in February.

Bad sign.

[lioness]

Originally posted by Marye:
In Canada our native people are called First Nations. They are "bands" not tribes and have representatives in government. Native people have their own television station (which I get on my TV and have seen some very good movies) and I recently listened to the CBC radio in Nunavut (Inuit people) - on the internet. When I think it is cold here, I listen to Nunavut weather and give my head a shake.

Although, one report was rain in January (never have they seen this before) and bears roaming about in February.

Bad sign.

we are called Nations in the US also.

Native American or American Indian (this is the curennt debate of proper categorization) is a very generic tone.

[dai bread]

Intriguing. We hear very little about American Indians here, either Canadian or U.S. I regard them as the same race as Polynesians, because they look so alike, but I think I'm on my own there.

The way the TV programs are, one would imagine the indigenous race of North America was the Black.

What's this about Native Americans not being "native"?

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by dai bread:
What's this about Native Americans not being "native"?

Theory runs: the americas were colonized by nomadic bands following migratory herd animals across the Aleutian land bridge toward the end of the last ice age. It seems likeliest that there were several waves of new people, spaced according to the sea level and the amount of land visible in the bridge.

There's a decent amount of anthropological evidence to support this theory. There seem to be several distinct body types and language groupings among the peoples resident in the americas before the european immigrants arrived, but I can't think of any of them that have really heavy body or facial hair.

[lliam]

I’m finding this a most interesting topic. I didn’t realize the response I would get on this subject. B.T.W do red Indians have red skin? Now, when we were kids the teachers told us that, black skin people come from a country where they have lots of sunshine and that's why their skin is so dark. If that’s so why do Eskimos have dark skin and they live in the arctic where there’s 6 months darkness? Mmmm.

[RC]

"Red" skin? No. I imagine that was an attempt to distinguish Native American indians from what anyone had previously known. Like, I'm not really white either.

The most distinguishing charachteristic of people from my neck of the woods (and in my own family to some extent), are high cheek bones, straight black hair, and a very flat backside.

I wonder about an Asian connection because the people I knew seemed to be taller in general than everyone else. (Of course, I'm only 5'3" so everyone seems pretty tall to me ).

[RC]

Interesting information: web page

Dr. Pius Moss, an Elder of the Arapaho Tribe on the Wind River Reservation:

Arapaho, as far as origin. At one time this land...there was no land here but water. Well, briefly, and it's very brief, I've never added nothing. I've heard this time and time again from my father, my aunts and uncles in the English relationship....but in the Arapaho they were my fathers and mothers.

So, I've heard this time and again that the place we live in now, was all water. And the old man we call the Flat Pipe, he was somewhat tired of being in the water. So he called for help. Well, after so long for some time, how many ducks flew by. Ten, twelve, whatever, but ducks flew by. They heard his plea for help. So they went down and he made the approach saying he needed help. "Do you want to get some land?" So, the ducks said that they would help. Do what they could. So they, in turn, went down into the depths of the lake or waterbed, or whatever it is....ocean.

In due time they began to come back. Some didn't have anything, some had very little in their bills....very little earth. And they didn't accumulate too fast and the old man just wasn't satisfied. Still, he had something that he did not have before.

So, in due time, here comes a turtle. The turtle, then, was summoned by the old man, if he could help...going down into the depths of the ocean or water or lake to see if he could retrieve some land. Earth. He said that he would do what he could...glad to help. So then he went down. All right...in due time, here he comes back with a bit more than what the ducks had come up with. Then he went down how many times. Each time he came up with more. That satisfies the old man and then, as far as we're concerned, that's how land was established and that's how creation was established.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as our instructions...the information has never been put out in such a way to where it's been stereotyped or been distorted. It's simple. That's why I believe the elders when they tell me we were here all the time under those circumstances. And that was the origin of the Arapaho. We were here all the time in the Great Plains area. The anthropologists do state that we came from Southeast Asia across a land bridge between Alaska and Siberia, then came into the Northern American continent into the area of the Great Lakes, then on down into the area of New Jersey. Then westerly to the Great Lakes area, Minnesota, and then eventually back to the Great Plains.

Now....that is what the anthropologists have come up with and the time involved? You pick up a book and it says 2,000 years. The next book will say 3,000....4,000. Information that I have received is simple but true. Now, we speak of oral instruction and the elders say...and I myself believe....that because the culture of the mainstream of life that has enveloped us, it has the tendency to overcome our thoughts at times. At times we will surrender to that other culture and distort some of the oral information. That is why I say the old people gave instructions orally and, as simple as they were, they were maintained that way.

[RC]

Washakie Foundation

Go here and you'll see what I mean about the high cheek bones. My sisters look just like Chief Washakie . Same cheek bones, same nose, all except the mouth...and they're both blonde.

[Marye]

A beautiful people, RC.

[Trumpetmaster]

St. Johns College in Queens NY used to go by the nickname "Redmen"
A few years ago they changed their nickname to
"Redstorm" to be politically correct.