Prelude to Stream-of-Consciousness

[shostakovich]

Hi folks. Since my retirement almost 10 years ago I've been actively wrestling with some heavy subjects like the meaning of life, death, and religions in general. I've also occasionally written letters-to-editors to newspapers and magazines. What's been happening recently is that I wake up troubled, mulling something over, and I can't get back to sleep, but ideas formulate. I get it out of my system by writing. I used to be a very sound sleeper.

Last night my heavy stuff kept me awake, possibly because I would be attending a friend's funeral. It made me more conscious of how little time I might have left. I have no serious illness to make me think death is imminent, but one never knows. It caught my friend by surprise. So, I'd like to start sharing some of my thoughts. Call it sleep therapy for Shos (and maybe, unintentionally, for the readers).

Why here? I'm a firm believer in the correlation between intelligence and appreciation of classical music, so this my best venue. I'll chop it into separate topics.

Talk to you, soon.
Shos

[DavidS]

Originally posted by shostakovich:
So, I'd like to start sharing some of my thoughts.

Why here? I'm a firm believer in the correlation between intelligence and appreciation of classical music, so this my best venue. I'll chop it into separate topics.

Talk to you, soon.
Shos

Hi Shos, I can definitely connect with your urge to share inner thoughts; it'll be most mutually enjoyable.
I don't know whether the "Mozart Effect" is a fallacy, but I quite agree that a predilection to enjoy Mozart and other "classical" music goes with intelligence. I have not made any serious study of this, but could it have something to do with attention span (among other things)?

[barfle]

First, please accept my sympathies on the loss of your friend.

I recently attended my 40-year high school reunion, and as the committee member who kept the database, I was shocked to discover how many we've lost, so my own mortality was made quite clear.

I'm reasonably confident in my own longevity, though, since my grandmother made it to 102, and both my parents are alive, healthy, and in their 80s. But one thing I know is that there are no guarantees. I discussed with OT an accident I had while riding a bicycle that lost an argument with a flat-bed semi. One of the thoughts that crossed my mind at the time was "So this is how it happens." I was six days shy of my 30th birthday.

I'm so confused by all the teachings in an afterlife and what it might take to achieve a pleasant one that I tend to dismiss those teachings, and accept the idea that when my metabolism ceases, so will my consciousness. Based on that acceptance, I don't particularly fear death, and during the event above, I don't recall fear being part of the experience. I do fear the pain I have seen others suffer through, and I can only hope that my own demise comes with a minimum of that.

I view my own departure from the living with sadness, because I see so many things happening in the world around me that I don't want to miss any of them. But I've had my life change so many times, both by my own actions and by the actions of others, that I've already experienced leaving some nifty stuff behind. Not particularly pleasant, but just part of existence.

As far as my views on the meaning of life are concerned, I think it's up to each one of us to provide that meaning. A lot of us provide that meaning by having children and propogating the species, and that is a truly noble and valid effort, one that I admit never held more appeal than fear of failure for me. Some create works of art or literature or music. Some make scientific discoveries, or provide the public with useful goods and services. Some feel their purpose in life is to serve their creator.

My views on religion are as radical as my views on politics, so I won't go any further down that path just yet, except for my views on an afterlife above.

I certainly don't consider myself a philosopher, although I've done a fair amount of self-examination in order to figure out what philosophies I am most comfortable following. And I also realize that there are still some conflicts that I would like to resolve while I have the IQ digits to rub together, so to speak.

This could be fun, or it could degenerate into one of those "you're wrong because you disagree with me" threads like exist in the barracks. Although I won't intend to change anyone's mind to agree with me, I will tell you what I feel and whatever reasons I may have for feeling that way.

[shostakovich]

"I have not made any serious study of this, but could it have something to do with attention span (among other things)?"
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Hi David. I would think so. Patience and attention span are connected, and they oppose instant gratification. Good thought.

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I'm so confused by all the teachings in an afterlife and what it might take to achieve a pleasant one that I tend to dismiss those teachings, and accept the idea that when my metabolism ceases, so will my consciousness.

I view my own departure from the living with sadness, because I see so many things happening in the world around me that I don't want to miss any of them.

As far as my views on the meaning of life are concerned, I think it's up to each one of us to provide that meaning.

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Hi Barfle. I thought of you when I decided to do this thread. I'm hoping to plant some seeds, and I thought of your great genes allowing you to pass them on to BBB-ers yet unborn. I'm delighted to see that we're very much in sync before I start.

I'll be getting to "death" sometime, but I'm right where you are on both "disappearing" and the damn shame of it.

I'm about to start the "meaning of life" thread, and we're incredibly together on that, too.
Shos

[Trumpetmaster]

I just received an email from a good friend whom I work with about 20 years ago. She advised me that one of our co-workers suffered a massive heart attack on 3/3.... Her sister had life support pulled on 3/10 and she past away 3/11.
My heart is so heavy now. She was only 49.
I will be 49 in a few months....

Death.... There is an afterlife....
We must all have faith that our existance on
this planet is only temporary and our creator
has greater plans for all of us.

Not trying to deviate from this thread,
but I have been doing so much thinking
about my parents who are both in their 70's
and not in the best of health.

I thank god every day that I still can call them on the phone or come visit as I am doing now.

The meaning of life? Who knows?
Life is too short.

I think we do not understand our true purpose
on this earth and only when we reach the afterlife that we will know.

This is why we must all try to be good and love each other.

I'll be back later... I need to go take a quiet walk.....

TM

[barfle]

TM, please accept my condolences on theloss of your friend, as well. Yes, life is too short. I've had too many friends leave it early, although I would like to cite the experience of my grandmother, who I mentioned in my earlier post.

I moved to the east coast a few years ago, because it offered a job with a decent retirement. It also gave me the opportunity to visit my grandmother a lot more often than I had been able to when I lived in California (she was in Ohio, about a nine-hour drive from my home here). Her mind was fine until she had the stroke that killed her, but that was part of the problem. She realized she wasn't going to recover from her condition (extremely advanced age), and since her body was growing more and more feeble, she knew every morning that today wasn't going to be any better than yesterday, and perhaps it would be substantially worse. She certainly seemed to enjoy my visits, and said so to my other relatives in the area. But we both knew that her quality of life was simply existence until something pushed her over the edge. She often expressed her desire to "wake up dead some morning."

I didn't know what that something would be, so I was a little surprised when I heard she had a stroke. A week later, I was at her funeral, and although I certainly felt the loss of a dear, dear grandmother, I also felt a certain relief that her suffering was over. She was ready to go.

TM, you also mention your age approaching 49. I turned 58 about six months ago, and I suddenly realized that I'm not all that far from being sixty. Now that seems old, even to me. How is it that the class of 1965 is showing serious "maturity?"

[shostakovich]

Hi Barfle. Like you, I hate pain. Yet it may be a silver lining in passing away. A quick, unexpected death may be merciful, but the silver lining in a prolonged demise is that you AND your friends have time to adjust and appreciate what was.

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"I think we do not understand our true purpose
on this earth and only when we reach the afterlife that we will know.

This is why we must all try to be good and love each other.

I'll be back later... I need to go take a quiet walk.....

TM"
----------------------------------------------------

Hi TM.
I'm not a believer in an afterlife, but so much of my soul-searching has come down to "unknowable". How unfulfilling! I don't believe, though, that an afterlife is a necessary condition for being good. "Good" is valuable for its own sake. And, according to the "meaning of life" thread, "good" has many meanings to many people.

I will say, though, that belief in an afterlife is a comfort. Sorry about your loss. Happy 49th when it happens.
Uncomfortable Shos

[barfle]

Originally posted by shostakovich:
Hi Barfle. Like you, I hate pain. Yet it may be a silver lining in passing away. A quick, unexpected death may be merciful, but the silver lining in a prolonged demise is that you AND your friends have time to adjust and appreciate what was.

I'm reminded of a traffic sign that shows up every now and then: "Prepare to stop." I'm always prepared to stop when I'm driving. One thing I believe is that you can't show the people you love that you do love them too often.

My mother-in-law spent an agonizing month dying of cancer. It was, without doubt, the most uncomfortable time I've ever experienced, and although we knew the outcome well in advance, I wouldn't have wished that time on my most despised enemies. Michael Landon seemed to have something that was asymptomatic until it caused cessation of respiration and other metabolic functions. But it was still tragic,

[shostakovich]

But your mother-in-law was definitely ready to depart. My aunt died slowly of lung cancer a while back. While it was very painful to watch, I kept telling myself, "when she goes, it will feel like a blessing" (to her). I guess we measured these departures a bit differently. Score one for Protagoras?
Shos

[shostakovich]

By the way, Protagoras made Athenians uncomfortable. He was sent into exile. "Measured and found wanting."

Does that ring a Bell?
Shos

[Trumpetmaster]

Thank you ALL for you concerns....
Barfle, my condolences about your grandmother...

Shos, life just is not fair....
It is difficult to comprehend our existance and
what happens to us when our bodies die... and our souls go on.... I am a few years away from retirement so maybe my thoughts and feelings are not as close to your situation but I do understand to a certain degree....

I've been married 10 years. My wife lost her parents a number of years before I met her.
To this day she wishes she could call her mom up and speak to her. It was at her insistance that I came down to see my dad.
Her exact words were...
"There's always time for a funeral"
How true...

My dad sat me down,
went over all my parents assets... cash flow... IRAs etc.... what to do when they are gone.
It is so difficult to think about the inevitable but they will eventualy die and life must go on.

My wife also let me know that at a certain point in life the child becomes the parent....
It is hard for me to take that roll but....
doing that now.....
How true...

I have a twin brother who plays trombone.
He lives in New Hampshire.
I spoke to him and want to arrange a trip where
the both of us come down to see our parents.

We waste time running around like rats in a maze
and for what? A decent salary.... and comfortable living conditions....

I thank god every day for the blessings bestowed upon me....
We are all sinners and guilty of neglect to our fellow man.

Sorry about this but I am at a stage right now where there is just RAW emotions going on....
I keep reminding myself of Psalm 23

"The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou art with me; Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies; Thou anointest my head with oil; My cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

I'm really OK... Just got over 2 funerals...
and a bunch of crap from work and now this....
God has a strange way of sending us messages...

TM

<small>[ 03-12-2006, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: TrumpetMaster ]</small>

[Trumpetmaster]

The apostle Paul, facing the possibility of his own execution as a martyr of the faith wrote,

" I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I'm torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body (Phil. 1:20-24).

<small>[ 03-12-2006, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: TrumpetMaster ]</small>

[Trumpetmaster]

Isaiah 57:1-2

The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death.
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We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth (Isa. 53:6-7).

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[analog]

Thank you Shos. Lots of good writers say it is absolutely necessary that they write. I look forward to what you have to say.

Thanks to you who have shared.

Miracles are those little coincidences that alter one's course. I think there's going to be some on this thread.

TM keep up with your checkups. My first heart attack was at age 49. Only warning was an overwhelming sense of impending doom the night before, which I since learned is not unusual.

[dai bread]

I get a little shiver down my back when people who are younger than me die of disease or malfunction of some sort. It tends to give me thoughts of borrowed time.

However, as only the good die young, I guess I must be very sinful. My father is an even worse sinner; he's 95.

Funerals in my wife's family are an excuse for a good gossip. I enjoy them; even the one for a 60-y-o who died of cancer. She had time to plan her own funeral, and did so; even selecting the cakes & savouries for the food. Her close friends at the service said she went out in very good spirits- not down at all, and looking forward to the next adventure, whatever that might turn out to be.

The thing about ageing that does scare me is Alzheimer's. Pain can be managed; Alzheimer's can't.

[Shapley]

Dai,

Having known a few people who suffered the heartbreak of Alzheimer's, I have to admit that it seems to be the worst possible way to go. Having had ulcers at an early age, which were treated in those days with aluminium-based antacids, I fear that if I live long enough, I'll suffer that fate. Perhaps an earlier death will come as a blessing.

I'm not sure how much suffering the Alzheimer's patient experiences. I have to wonder how much of their surroundings they are aware of. Do they realize, after a time, that they are losing their minds? I know that most realize that memory loss is setting in initially, but does a point come when sufficient memory is lost that one no longer realizes that it ever existed? Do they become like children at some point, learning new things daily, only to lose that knowledge again without the realization that it was ever known?

I've seen the movie Awakenings, which dealt with a similar affliction. It bothers me to think of life in that condition. I wonder how much my stepson is aware of, and whether he feels tormented, with a will to move, to speak, to walk, and to eat, all while imprisoned in a body that can do none of those things. I suppose, like anything else in life, we learn to deal with it. However, being terribly clausterphobic, the idea of being so imprisoned is not a welcome thought. I've actually awakened at night fearful that I would find myself so afflicted, and I've had to go outside, into the fresh air, until the sense of dread passes.

Mostly, I fear becoming a burden on those I love. As a Catholic family, it is a burden they are likely to bear without complaint. It is also a burden I cannot willfully deny them, if it is ordained to be. However, it is a burden I do not wish upon them, or anyone else. I've always been leary of placing myself at the mercy of others. I prefer to drive when we travel, rather than be driven. I try never to drink to a level that I am not in control of my situation, in order not to have to depend on others to find my way home. I try always to be in control of my own situation, and I try to instill that concept in my son. I realize that at some point I will have to surrender myself to the care of doctors, nurses, caregivers, or whoever, at least for a short time, but I do not cherish the thought that I will be under someone's care long-term. Hopefully, I will not find myself in that condition, but if I do, I pray that I am able to keep their burden as light as possible.

I guess that's my way of saying I hope I die with my boots on.

V/R
Shapley

<small>[ 03-13-2006, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>

[DavidS]

To all of you who have lost near and dear ones, and seen them suffer - please accept my condolences and sympathy.
It is very hard to find appropriate words of comfort, even when someone passes on at a relatively advanced age.
I remember my mother's last days 3 years ago (aged 82). Rationally I realised that the end was nigh, but emotionally I could not imagine life on this earth without her and was hoping against hope for some miracle. And to this very day I find it hard to come to terms with my father's death - many years ago; I still have dreams of him coming back after a long absence.
This ties in with my take on the afterlife. My religious education attempted to instil in me the conviction that this world is only the "anteroom" to the World to Come. Well, I don't know whether we pass into another existence with similar kinds of consciousness and senses to those we have here (I have not met anyone who has come back and testified to it), but if you accept that "John Brown's...soul goes marching on", then the kind of family you raise, your contribution to human society, science, technology, arts and the economy, i.e. what you are remembered for* - those are the elements of eternal life that we can understand.
I have a problem with Shakespeare's "...the good that they (men) do is oft interred in their bones."
*A wise rabbi once said, "He who names the author of something he quotes - brings Redemption to the world."

[OperaTenor]

So far, I've had two up-close-and-personals with my mortality, and, while I don't want to shuffle off this mortal coil just yet(especially these days!!!!!), I honestly don't fear death. It seems to me we fail to remember that it is as essential to life as birth, so why worry about its eventuality? That's not to say "live irresponsibly", but to me it means I should concern myself more with the life I have here and now, to savor it and live it to its fullest, and not to dwell on what was or what might be.

I think I can say with all honesty and a reasonably objective perspective, that remembering what good life has served up for me can carry me through anything, and no amount of pain or duress can take that away from me(in some respects, I can speak from experience). The foundation of all of this is my faith in God, and to remember what Jesus taught, and to try to live my life in accordance within those teachings. To me the Beatles(of all the great philosophers - ) boiled it down succinctly in "The love you take is equal to the love you make".

I believe that by always trying to treat EVERYONE with the love and respect I would hope to be treated with gives me a sense of completion in life, and gives me strength to face whatever adversities confront me.

That, and a trip to Fat Ivor's.....

[Trumpetmaster]

Thanks again everyone for the support!
I will be going for my checkups regularly
to make sure the plumbing is all working.

Feeling a little better this morning.
My friends email was like getting a round
house punch to the gut.... made me do alot
of thinking.

OT - YES and a BIG rack of RIBS!!!!

Getting ready to leave for the airport now....

Had a nice time here in Augusta, GA....
Looking forward to getting home.

Will try and catch up later today.

Regards,
TM

[barfle]

Originally posted by shostakovich:
But your mother-in-law was definitely ready to depart.

Perhaps, but she was certainly not ready to get sick when she did.

As I sit here today, I want to keep on living, and I don't want anything to happen to me that would change my mind. I'm pretty sure that it's very difficult to change your mind once you're dead.

<small>[ 03-13-2006, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>