Religions 1: Musings

[shostakovich]

In high school I took French 1 and got a D, then took French 2 and flunked. Bad in French for sure. But the complicated grammatical structure helped me understand English better.

In college I majored in math. Many of the courses had to do with studying our number system from outside of the number system. For instance a mathematical system can be constructed that excludes commutativity. That is, a system in which A+B does not give the same result as B+A. Other constructs have only one operation, addition or multiplication, but not both. Other constructs had no 1. This allowed for studying commutativity, two operations, or the properties of 1 within our number system by eliminating them to see what is lost.

In other words, we study something from OUTSIDE the system. Applying this to religions, I'd like to go back to a time before religions. the following is my imaginary journey.

Some tens of thousands of years ago cave people had limited ability to communicate. There was no language, but grunts and gestures had to suffice. No one wondered what that thing in the sky was till Og. He didn't have a name, but that's what I'm calling him. What was that thing that came in daylight accompanied by warmth? This is what he wondered, but had no way of expressing his wonderment. So he couldn't engage his comrades. But Og WONDERED. It was a breakthrough.

Fast forward to a time when such wonder could be communicated. Bog, Cog, and Dog all wondered about the sun, the river, fruits that appeared on trees, etc. Where did they come from? What caused them to move? It was beyond them. But they all felt something was causing it. They dared think together what they would not have thought alone.

Fast forward some more to a time when Fog's clan believed in interaction with nature. When the river dried up they wished for its return. If they wished hard enough it rained. Day was good. Night was scary. The sun was important. They worshiped it. They drew pictures of the sun on the cave walls.

Generations later, descendents of Fog's clan imagined supernatural powers controlling the movements of the heavens, abundance of plants and animals, the rain, the winds. Since the operations of nature were a mystery, the powers had to be supernatural. They honored them with gifts. Hunters offered animals. Gatherers offered plants or their produce.

Finally, we get to what we can call civilizations, less than 10,000 years ago. The supernatural powers were called gods or something equivalent. Now I need to take a break to decide how to progress, and to do some research.
Shos

[BigJon@Work]

Shos, look up post hoc ergo propter to see where this is going. To most secularists, this is how religion looks.

<small>[ 03-27-2006, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: BigJon@Work ]</small>

[Shapley]

Shos,

I think I covered this before, but my question would be why Og, Cog, Bog, & Dog would have ever developed the propensity for wondering. No evolutionary need seems to be served by it. As a hunter-gatherer, Og and his friends would have been quite capable of fulfilling their needs without developing a brain capable of pondering the heavens. Many creatures have been around longer than we, and have not seen it necessary to question their existence, or to ponder its beginnings. Why did we?

If man created God in his own image, as is often suggested, why? What evolutionary purpose is served by doing so? Such pondering would seem counterproductive to the goal of propogating the species, as it leads to the establishment of morals and mores that prohibit promiscuity and allow for survival of the weakest. Is the ability to reason an evolutionary anomaly?

V/R
Shapley

[LudwigvB9]

[Shapley]

Prayer may imply that God can be swayed, bribed, or influenced by the mood of his creatures. Therefore he is changeable, which makes him imperfect.

The Bible is full of references to God changing his mind. Moses persuaded God not to destroy the people who had fashioned the golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai. The angel persuaded him to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if he could but find one just man within the walls (he never made it through the gate, finding Lot outside the walls of the city).

God also mentions that he heard the cries of the
people decrying the attrocities within the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which would indicate that prayer has value to God.

Macabbees tells us of the Jews praying to the dead to intercede on the behalf of their armies before battle.

If the Virgin has something vital for humankind, why doesn't she announce it worldwide? Isn't it weird she appears only to Roman Catholics?

Since Roman Catholics are the only ones who pray to her, it would be logical that that is to whom she appears.

V/R
Shapley

<small>[ 03-27-2006, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>

[GreatCarouser]

Originally posted by Shapley:
Shos,

I think I covered this before, but my question would be why Og, Cog, Bog, & Dog would have ever developed the propensity for wondering. No evolutionary need seems to be served by it...

Perhaps it was the necessary precursor to long range planning, a skill that requires abstract thought?..One could argue that seeing an otter eat shellfish and then making the leap to trying the shellfish yourself is or isn't abstract thought. My personal feeling is that humanity's ability to view other species' activities and adapt them (or parts of them) to our own purposes is most assuredly based upon an abstraction. The growth of this talent had to begin somewhere, why not one night while waiting for the return of the 'big light' and its relative safety from the real dangers of the world? Something knocked inside that head and the head's owner had nothing better to do than to explore it...

[barfle]

Originally posted by Shapley:
my question would be why Og, Cog, Bog, & Dog would have ever developed the propensity for wondering. No evolutionary need seems to be served by it.

Evolution doesn't happen because an advantage would be borne by it. If that were true, it would mean that it was directed by an intelligence.

Evolution is simply a multitude of mutations that are filtered by natural selection. When the dinosaurs died out, the ecological gap wasn't filled by things that were just like dinosaurs. Evolution does not require a perfect fit, it simply requires an organism that works well enough to survive to the point of reproduction, and that reproduces enough to cover the losses of individuals who do not survive that long.

Also originally posted by Shap:
If man created God in his own image, as is often suggested, why? What evolutionary purpose is served by doing so?

What evolutionary purpose is served by superstition? What use is the avoidance of the number 13? Or, for that matter, 666? How about whisky, nuclear weapons, and operas? We invent all sorts of things that aren't useful to our survival as a species.

Although I have been accused of being older than dirt, I wasn't around for the event, so I can't really say what purpose the invention of gods served those who did so. However, I can conjecture that they served as a good first estimate of the reasons for previously unexplained phenomena, like sunrises, rain, springtime, salmon spawns, and childbirth.

More from Shapley:
Such pondering would seem counterproductive to the goal of propogating the species, as it leads to the establishment of morals and mores that prohibit promiscuity and allow for survival of the weakest.

Actually, it provides for the long-term care of children until they are able to fend for themselves, and reproduce.

[piqaboo]

Nothing new to add, but I'll add it anyway (I'm like that).
Many things evolve and are selected for as side-effects of the evolutionary benefit selected for.
So, as noted by GC and barfle, the ability to solve problems (wear furs, store food) may carry with it as a side-effect the ability to wonder.

I would condense the history a little. I suspect that the jump from wondering why/who/what/how lead directly & fairly immediately to the invention of gods at the Bog/Cog/Dog level. It would be a tad later that the possibility of intervening with gods would be conceived.

Long term child care isnt so the kids grow and can fend for themselves. Its so the parents have sufficient time to plant a guilt trip strong enough to get the kids to take care of the parents.

[Shapley]

How about whisky, nuclear weapons, and operas? We invent all sorts of things that aren't useful to our survival as a species.

That's my point. We seem to be the only species that has developed the ability to design our own demise. Dinosaurs were around for a heck of a lot longer than we were, yet they did not seem develop beyond the same evolutionary scale as any other creature, the ability to feed themselves and to procreate. We humans have been around for what amounts to little more than a heartbeat in terms of the age of the world, yet we've developed the ability to build vessels to take us beyond the limits of our terrestrial domain, to build and use weapons capable of destroying most of our kind, and the ability to question the logic of doing so.

Most evolutionary traits that are not conducive to the survival of the species die out in the first generation that develops them. Thus, while Og was pondering the heavens, Grog was copulating with his woman, producing the next generation of Grogs who would kill Og the first time his ponderings kept him from bringing home the bacon, or wooly mammoth as the case may be.

Nearly all mammals nurture their young until they are capable of self-survival. They also have the self-preservation instinct that teaches them to abandon the weak, the sick, and the slow to a natural death. We, however, have developed compassion, which causes us to nurture our weak, sick, and slow, which some will argue is to the detriment of our species. Why? Why would this seemingly self-destructive trait exist initially, and then develop to allow us, flawed creatures that we are, to become the dominate (though not in number) species on the planet?

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

Originally posted by Shapley:
That's my point. We seem to be the only species that has developed the ability to design our own demise.

Wow, I sure missed that one. It looked to me like you were making the point that we didn't invent God, because it served no purpose to our survival. Correct me if I'm wrong.

More from Shap:
Most evolutionary traits that are not conducive to the survival of the species die out in the first generation that develops them.

I disagree. What's the survival advantage to blue eyes, red hair, or a hooked nose? Many of these traits are clearly hereditary. Now if you had said they were disadvantageous, I would agree.

Again, from Shapley:
Nearly all mammals nurture their young until they are capable of self-survival.

While this is true, this only takes a few months for most mammals, so monogamy isn't all that important. Humans, BTW, are not the only species that mates "for life."

Continuing discussion from Shapley:
They also have the self-preservation instinct that teaches them to abandon the weak, the sick, and the slow to a natural death. We, however, have developed compassion, which causes us to nurture our weak, sick, and slow, which some will argue is to the detriment of our species. Why?

I'm not certain about this, but I believe you are wrong about most other mammals abandoning their weak ones. They do what they can, but elk, for example, don't have the technology to fix up a calf with a broken leg. Elephants clearly mourn their dead, and have been seen holding up an injured herd mate to help it avoid danger or get to a watering hole.

[Shapley]

Barfle,

RE:It looked to me like you were making the point that we didn't invent God, because it served no purpose to our survival. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not entirely. I was making the point that it didn't make sense for us to have developed the ability to invent God, or to develop any other intellectual skills not specifically necessary for survival and propogation.

V/R
Shapley

[Shapley]

Barfle,

RE:Elephants clearly mourn their dead, and have been seen holding up an injured herd mate to help it avoid danger or get to a watering hole.

As have whales and others, but I have only heard of them protecting healthy mates and offspring. Most species abandon those born with defects that limit their survivability. I have seen pigeons peck a sick pigeon to death, dogs starve a crippled puppy, and cats abandon a defective litter. (And before anyone chimes in on it, I know that pigeons are not mammals).

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

An evolved trait doesn't have to make sense, it simply has to be good enough to survive and reproduce. What sense is an elephant's tail? How is it that I can get along without one? I know some animals tails are prehensile (monkeys), some serve as balance while the animal is in motion (cheetahs), and some can be used to swish away flies (horses), but most of them really serve very minor purposes, if any.

We've figured out how to use our traits, like most animals do.

[Shapley]

RE:What sense is an elephant's tail?

It gives baby elephants something to hold onto at the circus parade.

How is it that I can get along without one?

You're not an elephant, and you don't march in the circus parade.

[barfle]

Touche!

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I think I've explained my evolutionary scoring system before, but here it is again. It works, but you never know your own score. Also, guys don't count.

Count the number of great-great granddaughters (direct female descent) who have successfully reproduced. That's your raw score. There is no weighting, averaging, median calculation, none of that other fancy stuff. Only raw numbers count.

[piqaboo]

Thus, while Og was pondering the heavens, Grog was copulating with his woman, producing the next generation of Grogs who would kill Og the first time his ponderings kept him from bringing home the bacon, or wooly mammoth as the case may be

Actually, Og figured out that woolly mammoths were seen more often in the spring and fall, so she spared her husband from hunting them in winter and summer, and had him concentrating instead of ground squirrels. As a result, Og was better fed, & produced bigger babies which had more milk to drink and which therefore survived at a higher rate than did Grog's. Grog had a baby a year, but too many of them starved while Grog's husband was spending his summers looking for woolly mammoths that werent to be found.


See SISE above.

[BigJon@Work]

So what is the evolutionary advantage of the incredibly long time it takes to get children growed up to the point where they can take care of themselves?

[shostakovich]

Thanks for the interesting commentary. Most of you are way ahead of me. One of the questions asking why God was created in man's image might simply be answered by egotism and lack of imagination. That would also answer why so many space aliens on TV and in the movies are humanoid.

I think Egyptian and Asian gods are most often animal-human constructs. Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman gods are human in form.

[piqaboo]

I think that prolonged youth is one of the sidebar effects of an evolutionary advantage, rather than advantage in its own right.
The advantage is processing power. The disadvantage is the prolonged youth.
I figure most kids 'in the wild' could take reasonable care of themselves by age 7, and start breeding ~ 12.

today's society further prolongs youth because of the large amount of info we require to be absorbed and because abstract thinking matures later in the brain.