Pearl Harbor, Dec 7

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Pearl Harbor, Dec 7

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:11 pm

Yesterday there was a ceremony at the USS Arizona memorial. Some 350 survivors were on hand for the observance. Most are in their 80's or 90's now. The Pearl Harbor Survivors Association has announced this is the last time they will mark the event with an organized gathering.

If you ever visit the memorial, look at the list of names of those who died. Those with the same last name were fathers and sons, or brothers.

There is a McDonald's in Aiea where I take the kids, and from its' dining room you can see the Arizona, where the war began for us; and behind it the Missouri, on whose decks the war ended.

Visiting the memorial is a moving experience.
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Postby barfle » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:57 pm

I've had the honor of visiting the Arizona Memorial. It was probably ten years ago, so things may have changed. At the time, there was a program you could attend before you got on the boat to visit the floating part of the memorial.

I remember as particularly heartbreaking the story of the band on the Arizona. They had won a contest the previous evening, and as their reward, they got to sleep late. If they had been on deck, many of them would have survived.

And the list of names, although I knew none of them, was as poignant as those on the VietNam memorial, which does include people I knew.
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Postby dai bread » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:58 pm

Speculation is wonderful.

If Pearl Harbour hadn't happened, when would America have entered WW2, if at all?

Would we & the Aussies now have Japanese as our first language?

Would Britain be German-speaking?

Or would something else have happened to keep the Japanese & Germans in their places and out of ours? If so, what?

Whatever the ifs, buts & maybes, American intervention was really welcomed at the time, and those of us who know some history are still grateful.
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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Postby shostakovich » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:08 pm

"What if?" It can drive you nuts sometime. Pearl Harbor certainly was a turning point in a world that we can only be sure would be "different". I rarely speculate on "what if", but the 2000 election comes to mind. What if all the Florida votes had been counted? That may have been as significant, if less dramatic than Pearl Harbor.

I visited the Arizona Memorial back in 1961. Even 20 years after the attack oil from the ship was still coming to the surface. I wonder if it still is 65 years later.
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:10 am

"What if" can indeed drive a person crazy. I'm fairly sure that, had Pearl Harbor not happened, the US would not have entered the war the same way it did. There was a great deal of bitterness left over the end of WWI, the "war to end war", and a genuine disdain of Europe in general and their stupid eternal political wrangling in particular. The entire Pacific war was so foreign to the US heartland that it was never even thought of.

However, on December 8th, my dad was in line down at the county courthouse with lots of other young men. There was a sergeant from the Army Air Corps looking at farmboys' hands and separating out the ones with tool callouses and my dad was snagged by this guy. (Small side story - my dad's induction had to wait until his fingertips grew new skin because he hated gloves, worked on lots of engines, and the battery acid had smoothed off his fingerprints to the point where the army couldn't get a decent impression on the boxes on the forms.)

The guys in line were not so much enlisting out of patriotism, or duty, as out of outrage.
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Postby Shapley » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:59 pm

What if all the Florida votes had been counted?


They were, twice.
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Postby shostakovich » Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:54 pm

I seem to remember Katherine Harris stopping the re-count.
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Postby Shapley » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:05 pm

I seem to remember Katherine Harris stopping the re-count.


No. There was a full count, followed by a full recount. Katherine Harris stopped a third, selective recount that would have recounted ballots only in heavily Democratic areas.
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Postby Shapley » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:22 pm

Actually, Ms. Harris didn't stop any recounts, she merely insisted that, according to Florida State law, she had to certify the results by a specified date, and that the counties were required to submit their results by that time. The counties insisted that they did not have time to complete the manual recounts requested by Gore in that time, and took the matter to the courts. The courts ordered them to submit certified results based on the first recount, but that they could amend those counts following the manual recount, and set a deadline for filing of amended counts. The court did not require Harris to accept the amended counts. Miami-Dade county stopped the manual recount, arguing that there was not enough time to complete the count before the final filing date. Gore sued to have the count continued, and the Florida court agreed. The President challenged this ruling in the Federal courts, and the Florida court ruling was overturned.

The final, certified count was based on the first recount, with President Bush winning by about 500 votes.
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Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:22 pm

” If Pearl Harbour hadn't happened, when would America have entered WW2, if at all?


An interesting question indeed. I believe it would have been doubtful the US would have entered the war without the attack on Pearl, or some similar outrage in view of the isolationist sentiment in the American public and US Congress.

Many American don’t know that Germany was already at war with us even though it was undeclared. German U-boats sank the USS Ruben James and although Germany claimed it was a mistake neither sides took action to stop it from happening again. The US Navy added more ships to the Atlantic and Germany put in more U-Boats.

So the sinking of US merchant ships and naval ships during the convoys to England prior to Pearl Harbor did not rise to the level that would have brought US into the war.

Without our timely intervention I suspect that Germany would have succeeded in taking Moscow. Prior to the U.S. entry Hitler did not fear an invasion by the British and therefore would have used the divisions tied down in Europe by our entry to good effect on the eastern front.

After a protracted, and probably losing, battle to keep the sea-lanes open Britain probably would have been forced to sue for peace and become, at the very least, a Finland to Germany.

Japan would have probably stopped at Indonesia and then turn it’s attention to pacifying China. Even if Japan attacked the Philippines, I doubt that would have been enough to provoke us. The attack on Pearl harbor was very nearly called off because the risk to the Japanese Navy was deemed too high.

The U.S. would probably have gotten into A war if not THE war when a Mexican army, supported by a victorious Germany, tried to reclaim land annexed by the U.S. in the 1800s. Given the state of the U.S. military prior to Pearl Harbor I am not sure we could have withstood an attack on our southern border although we probably could have built up quickly to regain “our” land since government spending for military began to pick up in 1941 prior to Pearl harbor.

During the 1930s, the US military ranked 65th in the world. It had only a handful of soldiers; and in the famous 1937 war games held in Louisiana, soldiers went out in the field with broom handles instead of rifles, while the word "Tank" was painted on the sides of trucks (to simulate armor). This was the era of the Great Depression, and available government funds were being spent on domestic programs rather than building up the military.

While the Mexican scenario might be a little too far fetch I suspect that Japan would have begun making trouble in South America that MIGHT have gotten us involved, especially if SA countries requested our support under the provisions of the Monroe doctrine.

The world would surely have been a different place if Pearl Harbor hadn’t happened.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Postby Shapley » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:39 pm

If Pearl Harbour hadn't been invaded, the invasion would have come to Alaska. The Japanese did, in fact invade and occupy the Aluetian Islands during the war. They also attacked the U.S. mainland by balloon.

The Japanese wanted control of the whole Pacific basin, or at least the Western Side of it. Hawaii was strategic to that, as was Midway, Wake Island, and the Philippines, all of which, like Hawaii, were occupied by American troops. We would have found ourselves in the war, if not in Dec. 1941, then certainly within the following year.

Such 'what if' scenarios only make sense if you start with 'what if Japan had no designs on the Pacific Ocean', in which case they would not have joined the Axis and the whole scope of the war would have been different.

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Postby BigJon » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:32 pm

Haggis@wk wrote: a victorious Germany

Those words alone bring a shudder to my frame.
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Alaska Invasion

Postby PAULG » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:46 pm

Friend of mine was in the Coast Guard (a Coastie). He was stationed on Governor's Island in Manhattan. He always complained that he didn't like being stationed in NY because NY was too expensive, even though he lived on base. He tried to get transfer to some place warm and tropical in the Pacific, like Hawaii. Predictably, there were no openings in Hawaii, but they got him out to the Pacific. They sent him to station Attu, which is in the area the Japanese invaded. Big difference
http://www.uscg.mil/D17/loranattu/photo_album.htm
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Postby barfle » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:52 pm

Paul, welcome to the pit!

Your friend's experience reminds me of the old adage: "Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it."
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Attu

Postby PAULG » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Very True.

This was close to 20 years ago, I've lost touch with him now. Anyway if he stuck it out, they can retire in 20 years. Not bad.

P
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Postby Shapley » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Paul,

Welcome to the B.com BB!

I found Hawaii to be as expensive as NYC, except that you didn't need to buy a winter wardrobe!

V/R
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Postby PAULG » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:09 pm

Yes, so I have heard. Well I guess my buddy accomplished one of his goals. Doesn't look like there is anywhere to spend your paycheck there.

P
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Postby Shapley » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:19 pm

Here is a history of the Battle for the Aleutians in WWII.

There is a well-known photo of a large number of Japanese mini-subs that were, I believe, captured there at the end of the war, but a quick Google search didn't turn it up. I'll look later if I get a chance.
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Attu

Postby PAULG » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:27 pm

They have a Japanese Minisub at the Museum in Groton. Talk about a steel coffin!!!! You can also look through some WWII submarine Periscopes. I couldn't believe the downright primitive optics. My Nikon binoculars are stronger, and clearer; although, I keep them out of salt water.
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Postby Trumpetmaster » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:40 pm

Welcome to the Pit Paul!!!!
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