Artwork

[packysama]

Actually, I don't know if "coffe" should be hot but coffee definitely should be.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Oh, Piqaboo, this isn't a hot debate. You missed the Great Motherhood War. It was a wowser.

(BTW, Ethan, did you ever borrow a teething 3-year-old?)

For some reason, parenthood and childrearing issues provoke some really strong reactions from our board denizens, from a variety of perspectives. The lot that provoked me worst are the Motherhood Is A Great Romantic Adventure group.

The MIAGRA group flamed vociferously at the Kids Are Annoying And I Don't Want Them table. The KAAAIDWT counterattacked with style and vigor; I give them a slight edge, on points, because I like their arguments better.

I, and the other members of the Kids Are Too Much Work To Be Dumped On Draftees lobby are the clear winners. It's the most sensible platform on this issue, after all. Most of us also belong to I Love My Kids But Sometimes They Wear Me Out. Most of the active parents belong to KATMWTBDOD and ILMKBSTWMO.

All the associated issues got dragged into the fight and we ended up with interwoven RightToLife and ProChoice threads (my own position is that the cure to abortion is better contraception) liberally, and conservatively, seasoned by some Educational Alternative issues.

It was epic. This is mild.

(I still think art cows are silly. Maybe if they're out in public and other people are touching them climbing is perhaps appropriate. Didn't see them, not sure on that. Did it hurt the cows?)

Selma

[piqaboo]

Selma,
I'd love to read that one! I shall hunt for it.
thanks for the heads up.

[Nicole Marie]

Hi JM, love you but you needed to be there...

There is a big differance between touching a cow (I could go there but I'm not) and the way these kids were acting. These children were climbing all over it, kicking it, trying to shake it out of it's base and one felt the floweres were scratch and sniff. She had a plastic ring and was trying to rub it into the flower. To me that is destructive. The majority of parents were letting their kids touch the cows but also teaching them important lessons on how to behave in public. "No climbing, no kicking, no scratching, Watch the people around you" were all phrases I heard often that day. That's being responsible.

The mother of these 4 darlings looked exhausted, overwelmed and probably should have stopped at two. If you can't handle them, don't have them. And my point was further proven when she called me a bitch in front of her darlings. Wonder how they will grow up? I'm all for kids digging art and interacting with it. Bring kids to the Andy Warhall building in Pittsburgh - they have interactive exhibits for kids and teach kids how to behave and interact with art, it's a great lesson.

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by piqaboo:
I'm a bit cowed by the fierceness of this debate, but found the wildness to come off the bench and join in.

A pun worthy of Shos...

Selma, it seems as though we are skirting the Great Motherhood Debate here, although now it's the Great Parenting in General Debate.

I got the chance for a few years to be a father and put to practice the theories I had mulled and stewed about for years. I was able to lay out clear, simple, and consistent boundaries to my four-year-old stepdaughter, and in a very short time she understood when she was doing the right thing and when she wasn't. The key was clear communication from her parents, and consistency in that every time something happened, good or bad, she elicited the same reaction from us parents. I've seen so many parents treat their children in an arbitrary fashion, it's no wonder the kids are confused and out of control. In our case, it got to be so that she never resented being disciplined because she understood exactly why it was happening, and at that point our relationship soared to whole new level. And I was able to discipline her without even threatening to lay a finger on her. We were able to treat her more as a peer than a subordinate, and had so much more fun as a family. And with those boundaries and communication established, wherever we went, and whatever we did, there were no embarassing scenes, no crying, no whining, and we always seemed to be able to make the most of it. It was a real joy in my life.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
These children were climbing all over it, kicking it, trying to shake it out of it's base and one felt the floweres were scratch and sniff. She had a plastic ring and was trying to rub it into the flower.

That describes vandalism. Not OK.

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
...The mother of these 4 darlings looked exhausted, overwelmed ...

Very likely an accurate assessment of her condition. Never mind how many she should have had; there are four now. Raising four people is absolutely draining. She needs help.

From experience, I can only pass on the observation that being justly criticized for one's children's behavior is even more enraging than being unjustly criticized. I don't know why, it just is. I won't even try to defend her attitude; but I can pity her.

Children are born impulsive, willful, curious, and without a lick of culture. Overcoming this native condition is quite a job. When the sole parent present is outnumbered, surrounded, and overwhelmed it approaches impossible. I would probably have never tried to take four young hooligans to an art cow exhibit (giggle) but headed to the park, or the pool, or the beach, or some other place where they could get filthy and exhausted.

Can we give her half a brownie point for even trying to "culture" them? Even if it was a major error to expose mini-barbarians to (giggle) art cows. And (giggle) art cows to mini-barbs?

Selma

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by operatenor:
I got the chance for a few years to be a father and put to practice the theories I had mulled and stewed about for years. I was able to lay out clear, simple, and consistent boundaries to my four-year-old stepdaughter, and in a very short time she understood when she was doing the right thing and when she wasn't. The key was clear communication from her parents, and consistency in that every time something happened, good or bad, she elicited the same reaction from us parents.

Parenthood training requirements could include obedience and field training an easy dog. Golden retrievers are perfect.

If you can't raise a Golden, you're not ready to raise a kid. All the basic principals are identical. Firm, kind, consistent rules and rewards. Discouragement of undesirable behavior and praise for desirable behavior.

Aggressive discouragement on safety issues. Running into the street will earn a child a sore situpon, instantly, no excuses accepted. And so forth. Don't care who says what about brutalizing the little darlings.

One of the keys is that the raiser/trainer has to be in charge. You and your ex-wife were. The Art Cow lady wasn't. Your kid was well-raised; the Art Cow lady's kids, well, they just grew?

Selma

[jmfryar]

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
These children were climbing all over it, kicking it, trying to shake it out of it's base and one felt the floweres were scratch and sniff. She had a plastic ring and was trying to rub it into the flower. To me that is destructive.

You are absolutely correct - that is inappropriate (unbelievably) but was anyone saying anything to her or to the kids?

Hmmm...maybe I'm the only crass and uncouth idiot in the crowd, but I never hesitate to let a child around me know when they're being inappropriate, whether they're mine or not. Maybe it's the teacher thing, but I've never had a problem leaning over and giving a tot a lecture on proper behavior whether the partent was standing there or not. Gotten a few appreciative thank you's in my time for it from the parents (don't get me started on that, though)

But then, I'm also the type that would walk up to mothers smoking around their infants and rail at them as well...maybe "crass" and "uncouth" don't begin to describe it...

But then there was last night - I was in Stop and Shop where a mom with 4 kids (including a baby in the carraige- so cute!) was just trying to check out and the 4 or 5 year old was at the ATM machine playing with the buttons. So I let him punch the buttons for me - only took 4 or 5 tries before he figured out when to stop hitting the 0 key. (I really didn't want $15,000). It could have been an incident of "Damn mother couldn't keep her kids near her???" but why? I talked to the kid, let him play with purpose, maybe taught him a little about counting, got my cash after a little longer than I may have wanted, but the smile was worth it.

Pakysana - you compared two things that have no relationship whatsoever.

My choice to not give credance to opinion stemming from theory and not practical experience is a personal filter I have erected with regards to opinions that assist my decision making. If I want to know something about swimming, I personally go to a swim instructor before I go to a book, and LONG before I go to a philosopher. If I want information on raising my child (and despite a masters in early childhood development and 7 years teaching tots, I still have TONS of questions) I'm going to go to a pediatrician, a child psychologist or another parent, before I go to a book and LONG before I go to someone who's sum total of experience with children is Christmas when the nieces and nephews head over.

I don't see how that filter relates to my societal responsibility and biological drive to properly raise and discipline my daughter.

One is a personal choice and the other is a societal/biological requirement - this is like comparing apples and sharks - I don't see the connection. Maybe you could elucidate?

[OperaTenor]

Tots? I like 'em once in a while, but they have to be a little overdone so they're crunchy, with lots of ketchup....

[jmfryar]

Originally posted by packysama:
Actually, I don't know if "coffe" should be hot but coffee definitely should be.

Yes, but when it's served at almost 200 degrees, hot enough to dissolve clothing, cause second and third degree burns, nerve damage and an inability to engage in sexual intercourse possibly ever again, it's not "hot" any longer.

McDonalds justification? NO ONE drinks coffee in the car - it has to be served that hot so that it will be hot enough to drink a half hour later when they get home.

Turns out that there were other cases of burns that they chose to ignore as well.

Needless to say, that argument didn't work - penalties for blatent disregard for safety by a business like this usually yield a penalty to the business owner in terms of profits. You want to penalize them so that they don't do it again. And for the fact that they well knew what was happening and still chose to ignore it.

The jury agreed that the victim should get two days profit for coffee sales for McDonalds as a penalty to McDonalds for its just plain stupidity. That turned out to be the $2.6 million or so award originally given.

Headlines blare, people scream and yell...no one notices when McDonalds appeals and the appellate court reduces the penalty to medical costs and a more reasonable figure for damages. $480,000. McDonalds settled out of court for a sealed amount.

In case you're curious, the "hot" coffee did damage of around $20,000 in medical bills. This woman was seriously, seriously injured.

<small>[ 09-11-2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: jmfryar ]</small>

[Marye]

My choice to not give credance to opinion stemming from theory and not practical experience is a personal filter I have erected with regards to opinions that assist my decision making

Man, Jm, this is lawyer speak!

[jmfryar]

Sigh...you're right...and I do it without even realizing it too...

that is so, so, so, so bad...it's not even english...

[Marye]

Ah Jm, don't feel badly.. I work in a law firm - it is one of my job's to say, huh?

[packysama]

So, jm, has anybody with McDonalds to see if their coffee is still "molten". I wonder if it was truly a learning experience for them?

I'm glad you don't always practice what you seemed to be preaching earlier. You WILL "correct" the kids if they get too wild and out of control.

In the "fruit and sharks" debate I was actually comparing the ACT of "shirking" these two separate issues. The point being that it MAY be ill-conceived and ill-advised to not at least consider other opinions before you decide if the indivdual imparting the information is worthy enough to be listened to. I know some people without kids that would be certainly no worse at raising them than many parents and might even be some. They just have different priorities in their eyes. They might also think of something that you or I haven't in regard to child-rearing.

Like you, I wouldn't first consult a book for swimming instruction either.

[jmfryar]

The problem with theory is that it sounds so seductively complete on it's face -

You are sitting in a chair and the phone next to you rings. You reach over to answer the phone, let's say 2 feet away. Your hand must cover half that distance, or one foot. Your hand must then cover 1/2 the remaining distance, or 6 inches.

Your hand must continue moving and reaches the halfway mark of three inches.

Your hand continues on, reaching the 1 and 1/2 inch mark.

Continuing on to 3/4" before the phone...and as we all know, there is no final number. Every number divisible by 2 is, in turn, divisible by 2.

In other words, theoretically, you cannot answer the phone. Matter of fact, if you invert the argument, you can't move a finger.

Well, this theory doesn't seem to stop us from getting up and answering the phone, or any other activity.

Pure theory has no application in reality. It must be tempered by practical application.

I don't trust any statement that is based on observation and postulation. It may sound glossy and good on the outside, but when the rubber hits the road, it doesn't stand a chance.

In other words, if you have kids and deal with them day in and day out, I'll raptly pay attention to what you say. I may or may not take it to heart, but I'll pay attention. If you haven't been around a child since you were that age, then it's understandable why I won't be giving the opinion much credence.

Same as if I decided to go on a rant as to why tenors are the weakest of the bunch...what the hell do I know about either except for what I've read in some article somewhere? I will always defer to those that do...

And no, there's no actual article...put down the candlestick operatenor...

[treebeau]

So, let's say you take a bunch of lawyers and line them up in front of a firing squad. Each member of the squad has a live round. Each bullet has to go through an infinite number of points to reach it's target. In theory, no lawyer will be harmed.

I'm sure many would love to see this experiment?

Regards,
Tim B.

[jmfryar]

Everyone complains about lawyers...right up until you need one...

heh heh heh...

[Shapley]

Jim,

We complain about them even when we need them.

When one has to clean up poop, one is glad to have a poop-scoop, but that doesn't make us love the job or the poop-scoop.

V/R
Shapley

[jmfryar]

I've never seen a poop-scoop put a bad person in jail, get your neighbor to let you alone, or get you money to pay you back for harms you've suffered.

Lawyers are all that stand between civilization and anarchy...it's an unappreciated job, but someone has to do it...no applause, please, I do it for my love of humanity...

[treebeau]

Originally posted by jmfryar:
I've never seen a poop-scoop put a bad person in jail, get your neighbor to let you alone, or get you money to pay you back for harms you've suffered.

Let's not forget the lawyers who do their best to keep that bad person out of jail, defend your neighbor's rights to bother you, and keep a lot of the money you get for your suffering.

Regards,
Tim B.