More troops for Iraq

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More troops for Iraq

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:36 am

Bush is right again! He figures we don't have enough troops to stop the violence in Iraq. And we never will.
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Postby Trumpetmaster » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:29 am

GCR,

I saw a report months ago about Rumsfeld.

It seemed he felt the military could operate Lean and Mean with
the technology that the United States possed.

It also interviewed some former leaders who requested
more "Boots on the Ground" early on in the effort.

It appeared those requests never made it up to Rumsfeld
probably because he had his staff so afraid of disagreeing with him.....

Very sad situation....

I do not like what's going on now... Maybe if we went in with
an overwhelming show of force in the beginning.....
Things might be different now, then again maybe they would not....


All I can say from MHO is that the policy has not worked in Iraq
and more and more of our brothers and sisters are being killed
from poor policies.

I do understand the need to stop these extremists from what they
are doing, but lets get a good plan together instead of a haphazard
knee jerk reaction.

Let's hope we now have people in place who will send the message when change is needed and that the leaders will listen and adjust as needed...

Goodness... sorry for the length of this....
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:06 am

I posted a link a while back on the plan the President appears to be emplementing. It is not a 'knee-jerk reaction' but a well-thought out plan based on proven techniques successfully employed in Vietnam and elsewhere. It's not an 'instant fix', however, and will require time, but the idea has merit.

The knee-jerk response I've seen so far has been an unwillingness by the war's opponents to consider any plan that suggests that the war can still be won. As the President said "Show us your plan for victory in Iraq" before you dismiss this one.

V/R
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Postby Trumpetmaster » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:31 am

Shapley,

Good Point...
thanks,
TM
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Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:24 pm

The knee-jerk response I've seen so far has been an unwillingness by the war's opponents to consider any plan that suggests that the war can still be won.


and

"Show us your plan for victory in Iraq" before you dismiss this one


I'm certainly no expert here, nor any better informed than anyone--but as long as they continue a determined resistance they will not lose. When our troops get on the trucks and planes to leave, they will be firing mortars and rifles at us. Breaking their resistance would likely require draconian measures, like those used by Saddam. How's that for a plan?
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:04 pm

GCR,

I know it won't be easy, but it can be done without the draconian measures Saddam employed. There will likely be pockets of resistance, even long after we've left. The idea, however, is to contain the resistance in order to allow infrastructure repair and to allow the Iraqi government to devote resources to establishing itself in command, rather than devoting all its resources to repairing itself. Governments in places such as Spain and Ireland manage to survive in the face of resistance, primarily because they have had the opportunity to establish themselves as the recognized governmental entitiy. The people have faith that those governments will outlast the resistance, and thus they are unafraid to support them. The Iraqi government must be given the chance to establish itself in similar fashion. Once the people see the government as the ruling entity, and they see the resistance as a lesser entity than the lawful government, order will begin to be established and Iraq will find itself on the right footing at last.

V/R

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Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:59 pm

Governments in places such as Spain and Ireland manage to survive


Interesting, but irrelevant.

Once the people see the government as the ruling entity


More like, 'once the Imams see a government they like'. And sectarian differences will keep this from happening.

Twenty years ago, I knew an expert on the middle east. He told me that despite Saddam's reputation, the Arabs wanted to keep him in power to act as a buffer to the radical Shiites from Iran. In this capacity, he stabilized the middle east.

Its worth remembering that culturally these people do not want democracy. They want a theocracy, as is outlined and called for in the Koran.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:06 pm

GCR,

By "These people", I assume you refer to the radical Islamists, since you claim that "the Arabs" wanted Saddam left in power, and Saddam's goverment was not a theocracy. If a large portion of the Arab population wanted Saddam left in power, then clearly a large portion of the Arab population is not in favour of a theocratic form of government.

V/R
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Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:18 pm

By "These people", I assume you refer to the radical Islamists, since you claim that "the Arabs" wanted Saddam left in power


I'm a little confused by the 'these people' reference and can't find it in my posts. I'm a little dense. And "Arabs" refers to Arab governments, which may be divided into theocracies and thugs.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:23 pm

GCR,
[Quote:]Governments in places such as Spain and Ireland manage to survive


Interesting, but irrelevant.[/quote]

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. As I've said, the resistance exists in those places, but the resistance is, for the most part, irrelevant. I say it is irrelevant because, at this point, the resistance has no chance of toppling the governmental system (they may sway elections, but the electoral process and the governmental structure remain intact). In Iraq, we do not need to break the resistance, only render it irrelevant, which we can do by strenghting that government which it offers resistance to while repressing the resistance' ability to expand.

V/R
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Last edited by Shapley on Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:24 pm

[quote]Its worth remembering that culturally these people do not want democracy. They want a theocracy, as is outlined and called for in the Koran. (Emphasis mine)

V/R
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Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:44 pm

I don't think it's irrelevant at all


Of course it is. Maybe it serves to illustrate your point, but it would be better to make the point Iraq, not shift focus. Spain and Ireland--both European, Iraq--middle east. Big difference.

Its worth remembering that culturally these people do not want democracy. They want a theocracy, as is outlined and called for in the Koran. (Emphasis mine)


Sorry, I missed it. No fault in your logic here (in your reply), but I may have confused you about whom I was writing. Its not just the radical islamists, but the believers. I think this is why democracy will not work. Its an idea from the Christian west, not a description of the perfect government straight from the mouth of Allah.
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Postby piqaboo » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:41 pm

Shapley wrote:The idea, however, is to contain the resistance in order to allow infrastructure repair

Holy cow, who knows CPR? I feel faint! Shapley is agreeing with me! :shock: :shock:
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:35 pm

the resistance has no chance of toppling the governmental system (they may sway elections


After we leave, the Iraqi government will evaporate and mullahs will fight amongst themselves.
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Postby OperaTenor » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:19 am

Giant Communist Robot wrote:
the resistance has no chance of toppling the governmental system (they may sway elections


After we leave, the Iraqi government will evaporate and mullahs will fight amongst themselves.


Do you think there will be any difference in that assessment if we leave in 2007 or 2077?
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Postby Trumpetmaster » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:25 am

OperaTenor wrote:
Giant Communist Robot wrote:
the resistance has no chance of toppling the governmental system (they may sway elections


After we leave, the Iraqi government will evaporate and mullahs will fight amongst themselves.


Do you think there will be any difference in that assessment if we leave in 2007 or 2077?


IMHO ...
I agree with OT...
They will be at each others throats for years...
I pray I am wrong but it seems there is just too much hate over there....
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