The Confederate flag

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The Confederate flag

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:15 pm

...is anti-American. The Confederacy was an attempt to dismantle the United States and reform a new government. I have seen Con. flag decals on the back windows of cars and trucks; I wonder if these people think of themselves as Americans. I don't.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:51 pm

I don't think the confederates considered themselves anti-American. They were trying to preserve the concept of States' rights, which was one of the blocks America's foundation was constructed upon. Many conservatives believe that the Union victory in the War between the States was a major factor in the death of the America outlined in our Constitution.

The Confederates did continue to call themselves the 'Confederate States of America'. The Constitution of the Confederate States of America is really little more than a rewrite of the United States Constitution.

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Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:29 pm

That's crediting a lot of sophistication to the bumper-sticker mindset.

I'd bet my next paycheck that a poll would show the vast majority of Confederate flag displayers do it because they think the concept of "rebel" is cool, in a NASCAR kind of way.

IOW, they're too stupid to know the true symbolism, generally speaking.
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Postby barfle » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:17 pm

OperaTenor wrote:IOW, they're too stupid to know the true symbolism, generally speaking.

Heah in Vahjinyah, the mem'ry of Gen Rob't E. Lee is heyald in vurry hai esteem.

It's quite funny how many military bases are named after Confederate generals. The main street through Alexandria, Virginia is Jefferson Davis.

Indeed, there are rednecks to be found aplenty in Dixie, but for those of us who feel the Constitution, as written and in force at the time of secession, was beaten to a worthless pulp by the Lincoln administration, the idea of the Confederacy really was an attempt to maintain a way of life that was threatened (and defeated) by a very strong federalist administration.

The politics of the age have indeed faded away, and the concept of "States' Rights" has pretty much faded with it. And Republicans have been responsible for a great deal of that loss of identity with a state, and toward a federation. Heck, even Richard Nixon imposed a nationwide speed limit, which is one of the few rights the states have been able to win back.

There are those who don't admit the civil war is over and done with, and who attempt to cling to a culture that only lasted a handful of years, sort of like the cowboy days. I don't consider those who wish for a state identity to be particularly rebellious, since I consider myself a Californian, temporarily on assignement in a distant land. Although I tend to feel that such sentiment is dealt serious blows by events like Hurricane Katrina, which virtually demanded a federal response.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:29 pm

I agree that State's rights has been trashed by Democrats and Republicans alike. Lincoln, after all, is the father of the Republican Party. I consider myself a Reagan Republican, but even Ronaldus Maximus was known to overstep the limits of Federal power on occasion.

I have nothing against the Federal government assisting the states in disasters, such as Hurricane katrina. However, there are protocols that must be followed in sending in the troops, which were discussed at length in the Hurricane Katrina thread, and which I won't rehash here.

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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:34 pm

OT,

I'm shocked. I thought you were chiding me very recently about 'painting with a broad brush'. I'm not a fan of noisy cars going around in circles, but I know some people who follow the circuit that are quite intellegent, and are successful professionals. Granted they don't generally cover their cars in Dale Earnhart, Jr. Decals or Confederate flag stickers, but they do show their support for their favourites, just as St. Louis Cardinals fans and supporters of other sporting activities do.

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Postby barfle » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:42 pm

Shapley wrote:I consider myself a Reagan Republican

Think "Goldwater" and you'll have a pretty clear idea of my political bent. Not exactly, but far closer than any other politician to make much noise during the time I've been paying attention.
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Postby OperaTenor » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:22 am

Shapley wrote:OT,

I'm shocked. I thought you were chiding me very recently about 'painting with a broad brush'. I'm not a fan of noisy cars going around in circles, but I know some people who follow the circuit that are quite intellegent, and are successful professionals. Granted they don't generally cover their cars in Dale Earnhart, Jr. Decals or Confederate flag stickers, but they do show their support for their favourites, just as St. Louis Cardinals fans and supporters of other sporting activities do.

V/R
Shapley


I did put it in the context of a generalization.

You don't see me getting frothy about team sports, either, so the parallel doesn't raise my sights much.
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Postby Shapley » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:30 am

You don't see me getting frothy about team sports, either, so the parallel doesn't raise my sights much.


Well, I don't either, but I know lots of people who do.

For my part, I've long been aware that there are other sports than Baseball, but I've never understood why.

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Postby barfle » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:18 am

Auto racing is a team sport, too.
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Postby Shapley » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:11 pm

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Postby The Punky Kid Rides Again » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:16 pm

Only in the USA could you argue that the flag of the CSA, used in open hostile rebellion against the USA, be considered patriotic to the USA.

I can't get my mind around this logic.

:rolleyes:
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:39 pm

The Punky Kid Rides Again wrote:I can't get my mind around this logic.

Logic goes, "It wasn't a rebellion, it was a secession" and "It was The War Between The States, durnit".

There were several issues that lead up to the (attempted) secession of the South: slavery was indeed one of them, but there were also tariff issues, and other points where the interests of the mostly agricultural southern states conflicted with the interests of the largely manufacturing northern states.

Such of my family that fly the Stars and Bars on their pickup trucks do so in a spirit very similar to that yankee "Don't Tread on Me" flag. It's a very American attitude.
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Postby Shapley » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:43 pm

Actually, it was used in open, hostile rebellion to the Federal usurption of the Constitutionally authorized rights of the individual States. I don't fly the flag myself, but I do recognize and support what it once stood for. History has rewritten the meaning of the flag and rendered it, in the mind of many (including many of those who fly it) to an issue of racism, but the meaning of the flag was something entirely different.

I liken the anger over the flag to the furor over the use of the word 'niggardly'. The true meaning of the word meant nothing in that argument. People were upset because of what they thought it meant. Thus the word, like the flag, was relegated to the trash heap because no one cared about the true meaning behind it. We're so sensitive to the idea of offending others that we will discard reason in favour of perception.

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Postby Giant Communist Robot » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:12 pm

I think what I was trying to say was that the Confederacy was a different country, and not the U.S. Display of the Con. flag suggests patriotism for a country other than the U.S.--a country with some sharply different policies. Enough difference to be anti--American.
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Postby BigJon » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:18 pm

I was at the Pennsylvania Farm Show last week with my kids. Tractor square dancing was the highlight of my visit. Yep, it is just what the title suggests, farm tractors driven in square dancing patterns on the arena floor. As you might guess, there were lots of rustic folk about and I saw this t-shirt several times.

Image

I was slightly offended. I guess we should buy one for you, huh Shap?
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Postby Giant Communist Robot » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:19 pm

Shapley wrote: History has rewritten the meaning of the flag and rendered it, in the mind of many (including many of those who fly it) to an issue of racism, but the meaning of the flag was something entirely different.


The flag is the symbol of the country. Don't get poetic and try to add meaning to it. And the country had a policy of what.......a race based slavery system? A little hard to overlook that item. I call it 'shame by association.'
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Postby Shapley » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:39 pm

I should point out that the race-based slavery system is a legacy of us all, not just the southerners. Slavery is written into the Constitution, and was not removed from it until after the War Between the States. The South seceded over States' rights, slavery being part of the issue, not all of it. The stain of slavery remains upon us all. Deleware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri did not secede from the union, but remained slave states until the ratification of the 13th Amendment. West Virginia seceded from Virgina as a slave state, and joined the Union in 1863. It, too, remained a slave state until the passage of the 13th Amendment two years later.

The Emmancipation Proclomation, signed by President Lincoln, did not free the slaves. The proclomation only freed slaves in those States that remained in rebellion against the United States. Since those States did not, at the time, recognize the President as having authority over them, they did not recognize the proclomation as having any virtue. Thus, the proclomation did nothing immediately. It was only after the war was ended, and the rebellious States reinstituted into the union, that the proclomation was put into effect and the slaves in the former Confederate States were freed.

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Postby The Punky Kid Rides Again » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:21 pm

I see what your saying, but I think bringing up the issue of tariffs and such is splitting hairs. IMHO. Not that I am looking for a fight (this time at least).

I mean that is like saying that Hitler and the Nazi's at least had the trains run on time.

I do not believe you can claim only part of the heritage as your own. If you are going to display a Confederate flag, I don't see how anyone can exempt it from a discussion on slavery or the fact that it was a rebellion against the USA.

I just find it interesting that people who display the CSA flag, often state that they are very patriotic for the USA

I would hope that none of the people displaying the Stars and Bars today would actually condone a system that instituted Human Slavery.

Therefore, I can not get my logic straight.
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Postby piqaboo » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:44 pm

Color me slow.
What exactly is it about "cool in a NASCAR kind of way" that revved your engines, Shapley?
I'm missing the implied insult you find in it. :? Dont tell OT; he thinks Im smart. :shock:

I'd be buying up stuff to be "cool in a Harley kind of way" (minus the logo) if I still rode as a passenger on the 2-wheeled gasoline-powered toy. Any excuse to get those high heeled black leather boots!
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