Will Europe Survive?

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Postby GreatCarouser » Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:55 am

Haggis you are the one who seems worried by a 'population explosion' in the above post. Let's take all your 'facts' and assume they are so, what solution(s) do you offer?
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Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:21 pm

GreatCarouser wrote:Haggis you are the one who seems worried by a 'population explosion' in the above post. Let's take all your 'facts' and assume they are so, what solution(s) do you offer?


Not "population explosion" (which is impossible if the population is declining) but population realignment.

Solutions? The first, and apparently the hardest, is to admit that there is a problem. I haven't seen anyone in authority other than John Howard admit there is a problem. So, do you think there is one? If not then nothing I'm going to suggest will matter. And....I'm not sure I can offer any remotely palatable ones.

For one thing, as far as the U.S. is concern, we must stop listening to the same “Middle East” experts the U.S. government has been listening to for decades. They do not have the best interest of the U.S. at heart. Most of the prestigious Middle Eastern chairs at prestigious U.S. Universities are funded by Wahabi Saudi Arabia. If the potential enemies of our country are framing the intellectual and, more importantly, the intelligence questions of the threat of radical Islam what are the chances those questions are going to be the correct ones?

Read another book I recommended. Future Jihad by Professor Walid Phares. A much tougher but more referenced book than America Alone. In chapter 16, Phares shows what lays ahead: a Mutant Jihad. A movement, and ideology and resources that are shaping the years to come: Adaptation to modern technologies, penetration of democratic societies and of their educational and economic tissues.

The “new” Jihadism already has decades of efforts behind it, and is planning for a rupture in world security and international relations.

As far as “Eurabia” I can only hope the impending crash is relatively benign. As Steyn says (not so tongue in cheek)
In France, the Catholic churches will become mosques; in England the village pubs will cease serving alcohol; in the Netherlands, the gay nightclubs will close up shop and relocate to San Francisco…The new Europeans will be observant Muslims instead of post-Christian secularists.


Or we are looking at Philip Longman quote from The Empty Cradle:

So where will the children of the future come from? Increasingly they will come from people who are at odds with the modern world. Such a trend, if sustained could drive human culture off its current market-driven individualistic, modernist course, gradually creating an anti-market culture dominated by fundamentalism – a new Dark Ages.”


Sound too far-fetched? I’ve heard people on this board complain about exactly the same thing radical Islam complains about. Crass commercialism, lack of concern for the socially disadvantage, loss of spirituality and most of those who complain here are Americans. There are lots of people in the U.S. (other than observant Muslims) who would see lots of benefits belonging to a society that eschews modernism; who would support privation as long as everyone was subject to the same privations (that would never happen of course, overlords regardless of religious or political orientation will always be, well, "overlords")

The Europeans are already facing very real, tough questions about their future and (in my opinion) if they don’t care enough about the future to even have enough children I can’t see them getting too worked up about modifying existing laws to accommodate Sharia.

I don't think Europe as it was in 1950 will be the same in 2050. I'll even go out on a limb and predict that we will see some serious accommodations to Sharia within 10 years; something like no alcohol sold, or consumed, in the country (Europe?) on Fridays. We already have English schools serving halal, apparently in all public schools, as a way to placate the Muslim population. In addition the U.K. is seriously considering building Muslim only hospitals. Is it so hard to imagine that after finding out how expensive that would be to see the health authorities just decide to modify some (all?) hospitals to meet some Muslim requirements? Females only treated by females? No pork? etc.

Solutions? Yep, got lots of them but nothing that will be palatable until a new Caliphate arises somewhere in the world; one with nuclear weapons and one that will use or threaten to use them.

I’m guessing it will arise in parts of central Russia and Asia, but I could be wrong.

As an aside, please let me know what “facts” you have any concerns about. I will try to allay any concerns. In the past I have, on occasion, been factually wrong and have always hasten to correct those mistakes.
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Postby GreatCarouser » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:13 pm

My using the word 'facts' in '' was only meant to indicate I hadn't read the article or the references and habitually refuse to take these things as factual without further research. It was not meant to be pejorative of any of the references or their claims. I have referenced Phares and his book previously on another thread, for example. I would be lying if I told you to take everything he alleges as fact because I haven't checked it.

I wanted to hear some of your ideas on solutions and, for the sake of argument, chose to accept your/their pov as fact in order to avoid hair-splitting before hearing about potential solutions. If I find some relevant 'factual' discrepancies I'll discuss them. At this point I can't speak to their accuracy or inaccuracy from any position of knowledge.
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Postby Haggis@wk » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:48 am

GreatCarouser wrote:I have referenced Phares and his book previously on another thread, for example. I would be lying if I told you to take everything he alleges as fact because I haven't checked it.

I wanted to hear some of your ideas on solutions and, for the sake of argument, chose to accept your/their pov as fact in order to avoid hair-splitting before hearing about potential solutions. If I find some relevant 'factual' discrepancies I'll discuss them. At this point I can't speak to their accuracy or inaccuracy from any position of knowledge.


I have some "history" with Phares since I heard him speak in the late 80's at a U.S. Military counterinsurgency/counterterrorism class I was taking. He was persuasive then and his message has changed little. I've read certain of his writing since then for both professional and personal reasons and still find him persuasive if pedantic.

What has made him more credible has been the predictions he was making in the 80's have become not only true but also accurate to an extent that is almost eerie.

As for reviewing the other facts for accuracy, well in all truthfulness there's really little else we, as a people, can do today. Until we get a government that meets two very important criteria we can't (won't) do anything.

1. The government, especially the president, must be convinced that a very real threat exist and the threat is grave enough to our way of life that any action, including the use of military, is justified to eliminate that threat.

2. The president must be a Democrat.

Without those two we, as a nation, will be unable to confront the evil in the manner it must be.

Most "red state" Americans have already shown through their votes that they believe we are near enough to that level of gravity that they support that kind of action today regardless of who is in the White House.

With a Democratic president, as has been amply demonstrated before, any war is a just war and the Democrats and Liberals will support it to the hilt.

For some reason, to slightly less than half of our country the only “legitimate” wars are those wars waged by Democrat presidents. I suppose it has something to do with the elitism of most Democrats but if that’s the only way to get the country fully committed then I’m all for it.

Interestingly, the only time a Democrat president stumbled in keeping the Democrats in line was during Vietnam when the president threatened to draft the "blue state" kids; then they rebelled. Not the parents, mind, the kids. Telling.

So, it might sound odd, but I expect that I will support the Democratic candidate in 2008 since I believe that the threat to our way of life is escalating exponentially and it’s only a matter of time before a nuke goes off in (I’m guessing) Cairo. I don’t think there will be a WMD attack anywhere in Europe since most Muslim cleric already believe that Europe is a Pan Islamic colony and (I hope) that the logistics of moving a similar weapon into the U.S. is too risky

Comments?
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Postby BigJon » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:51 pm

Check this dynamic map out.
http://mapsofwar.com/ind/american-wars.html
It shows wars and intensities by party in power.

Spend some time exploring this site. Especially this:
http://mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

These maps are something I've been wanting to develop for a long time. I think people's understanding of geo-politics would be greatly enhanced by covering world history with dynamic mapping like these.
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Postby Haggis@wk » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:14 am

UK’s National Health Service ‘should treat Muslims differently’

The NHS should be more accommodating to the religious needs of Muslims. Many Muslims would prefer to see a same-sex doctor for reasons of modesty, but this was often not possible, despite the increasing number of female doctors in the NHS. More information about drug ingredients should also be available to allow Muslim patients to avoid porcine and alcohol-derived drugs.
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Postby piqaboo » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:04 pm

Hey, if a Muslim wants to wait longer to see a Dr of a particular gender, fine. I have, in some cases.
If they want to have better labeling, we'll all pay for it. I do wonder what Jews do, since they too (some of them) also avoid pork products? Also Vegans? (Do vegans use enzymatic contact lense cleaner, I wonder?)

If they want to go thru airport security in the line with the women guards, fine. Choose your line, pick the speed at which you progress. And take your chances on shift changes while you wait.

I wonder how many practicers of Islam get offended by being referred to as a fabric? A typo I make frequently (muslin)?
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Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:10 pm

Forget Europe, will the U.S. survive?

Another demand from Muslims for special treatment—special treatment that would be denied to any other religious group


As the Ohio State Buckeyes pummeled the Northwestern Wildcats on Ryan Field last November, senior Amir Siddiqui and his friends slipped below the bleachers, removed their shoes and knelt on pieces of poster board to pray.

As the sea of purple cheered and jeered above, Siddiqui tuned out the world around him to perform salaat, the Islamic ritual prayer that faithful Muslims recite five times daily.

Siddiqui will do the same in Welsh-Ryan Arena next week when the Buckeyes basketball team goes up against the Wildcats. But rather than pray amid raucous crowds, some Muslim students are pressing Northwestern’s athletic department to set aside a secluded space for the ritual, or grant them permission to come and go from the arena before the buzzer.

“If we attend the game in its entirety, we would miss one of our five daily prayers,” said Siddiqui, president of the Muslim cultural Student Association. “I can leave the game early, come later, or pray somewhere in the stadium on dirty floors with lots of noise and lots of people around, which isn’t a huge problem. But we’d love to have a small area.”
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Postby Shapley » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:53 pm

I assume 'seperation of church and state' also includes 'seperation of mosque and state',thus prohibiting such a concession. You never know what will be decided in the name of 'cultural awareness', however, so it may be that the Buckeyes will buckle.

I think we need seperate areas for all groups - a place for Native Americans to smoke peace pipes, for each of the various Christian sects to pray in private, A seperate place for Muslims to pray, perhaps a suitable tree for the Druids to worship, and a place for the Wicans to dance naked or whatever it is they do.

Oh, and seperate drinking fountains, too. Perhaps we could even set aside different places on the bus for different groups. :D

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Postby dai bread » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:06 pm

Shapley wrote:
Oh, and seperate drinking fountains, too. Perhaps we could even set aside different places on the bus for different groups. :D

V/R
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Now where have I heard that idea before? :wink:
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Postby bignaf » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:46 pm

piqaboo wrote:If they want to have better labeling, we'll all pay for it. I do wonder what Jews do, since they too (some of them) also avoid pork products?

There are several issues that make pork in medication a non-issue.
firstly, if pork is less than %1.6 of the product it is not a problem (in practice it is preferable to have other extenuating circumstances). also there are many exceptions, so I don't want any Jews adding less that %1.6 of pork into their next Kreplach because of me (that is not allowed :))!
secondly, a person who has a illness that could kill him can eat anything to cure him/herself.
thirdly, medicine that is taken in a manner that is not an eating manner (i.e. injection or swallowing without chewing, or those that have a foul taste) is allowed no matter what is in it.
these things combine to make most medicines fine without rabbinical supervision. those medicines that are drunk or chewed and have a good taste, and are not taken for a life-threatening illness, need rabbinical supervision according to trad. Jewish law. companies who want that market, pay for the supervision. so in some limited cases, you pay a little more, because of the company's business decision.
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Postby bignaf » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:00 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:

“If we attend the game in its entirety, we would miss one of our five daily prayers,” said Siddiqui, president of the Muslim cultural Student Association. “I can leave the game early, come later, or pray somewhere in the stadium on dirty floors with lots of noise and lots of people around, which isn’t a huge problem. But we’d love to have a small area.”


sounds very reasonable to me. he's not demanding anything, and all he's requesting is a a little room being made available, or the permission to come late to the game. sounds extremely reasonable, unless you have islamophobia (which I have a right to have more than most others on the board).
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:10 pm

bignaf wrote:...thirdly, medicine that is taken in a manner that is not an eating manner (i.e. injection or swallowing without chewing, or those that have a foul taste) is allowed no matter what is in it.
these things combine to make most medicines fine without rabbinical supervision...

Eureka! Finally, I have a good explanation for why so many medicines taste nasty. It's The Law! :deal:

About the guys who need to pray during ball games - I have no problem with them coming and going from the seating area as long as they're not disruptive, but a chapel in a sports stadium somehow seems like an odd request. Personally, I have no problems asking God to please heal the referee's eyesight, right from my seat, out loud and with gestural emphasis. Sometimes my seat neighbors join in the prayer. And I clearly recall requesting divine intervention for the Chargers, just last week. That didn't need a separate room either, my living room was just fine.

I suppose if the stadium management wanted to, they could put in a chapel. But it shouldn't be a Muslim-designated room. Just a generic prayer room.
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Postby barfle » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:40 am

AFAICT, nobody's trying to prevent people from praying during sporting events. I see teams doing that every now and then, so if the fans want to join in, I see no problem.

If someone wants a "quiet place" to pray during a sporting event, I suggest they bring their own isolation chamber, and pay for the seat it will occupy.
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Postby Shapley » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:55 am

I think the 'cone of silence' may be available. I'll have to check ebay. :D

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Postby jamiebk » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:43 am

I often hear people praying at the game...usually uttering the Lord's name right after a dropped ball.
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:13 pm

jamiebk wrote:I often hear people praying at the game...usually uttering the Lord's name right after a dropped ball.

I knew I wasn't the only one. :rofl:
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Postby barfle » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:04 pm

jamiebk wrote:I often hear people praying at the game...usually uttering the Lord's name right after a dropped ball.

People call on Java, the mystic maid of the morn, who doth give life to the somnolent after a fumble?

The horror. The horror. :crazy:

Well, maybe the Michigan offensive line shold have stayed in bed last New Year's Day. They wouldn't have been any less effective.
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Postby analog » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:34 pm

This fellow has an interesting take on psychological roots of today's ‘we have met the enemy and he is us’ attitude.


http://hecubus.wordpress.com/tag/eric-hoffer/

interestingly he's Scandinavian.

a. :dunce: [/quote]
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Postby dai bread » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:19 pm

He does indeed, and I'm inclined to agree with him.

For a long time now, I've thought that Western civilization will be destroyed by its own liberal intellectuals and not by some outside enemy.

Having said that, I must also say that I support the free movement of people between nations, though where to draw the line as regards immigration remains a problem.

Some people, and I include those earnest souls who calculate the tonnage of CO2 per plane flight, would have us stop international travel except no doubt for themselves. Such travel is vital if we are to develop a view of others that shows them as people and not as some depersonalised "other". Even better is OE, which many NZers and Aussies take as a matter of course in their 20s.
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