31 Dead In University Shootings

Everyone loves a healthy debate. Post an idea or comment about a current event or issue. Let others post their ideas also. This area is for those who love to explore other points of view.

Moderator: Nicole Marie

Postby barfle » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:22 pm

piqaboo wrote:I'm becoming more in favor, slowly, of relatively free access to guns.
My worry about them is that too many small fry find them.

I certainly feel that anyone who lets a child play with a firearm deserves to have his firearms removed, and perhaps suffer more consequences of his carelessness.

Although there are toy guns, guns are not toys. Education and proficiency are vital elements of gun ownership.
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby barfle » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:26 pm

Shapley wrote:However, the greater likelihood is that he would never have attempting the second shooting, knowing the potential outcome.

Well, the outcome for him wouldn't have been much different, just the timing. But I do believe that the death toll would have probably been in the single digit range had someone been able to shoot back.

But you were right about the visa thingy. I got my information from a report that was incorrect.
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby barfle » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:40 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:I suspect that Shapley and Barfle have similar stories to tell

I had a .22 rifle when I was in the fourth grade. My father gave it to me for Christmas, and before New Year's, we had gone to the range on the Air Force base and I started perforating paper at a distance.

The community dump was a few miles from our house (although I couldn't tell you how many - this was fifty years ago) (criminy!). Dad and I used to go there and shoot rats. That's the only live "game" I've ever shot, although I've been on hunts before. But I must admit I prefer fishing from a boat. More meat, less hiking.
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby barfle » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:46 pm

Shapley wrote:I lost my father to cancer last November, and my younger brother to it last month.

That's terrible, Shap. You and your family have my sincere sympathy.
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby Shapley » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:53 pm

Barfle

You and your family have my sincere sympathy.


Thanks.


But you were right about the visa thingy. I got my information from a report that was incorrect.


There was lots of that floating around. Always is after something like this. You have to check and double check your news sources, since the news sources (whose job it is to do so) don't always do so.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby Trumpetmaster » Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:25 am

barfle wrote:
Shapley wrote:I lost my father to cancer last November, and my younger brother to it last month.

That's terrible, Shap. You and your family have my sincere sympathy.


Shapley,
So sorry to hear about your dad and younger brother.
Horrible disease.....
Respectfully,
TM
Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it.
Trumpetmaster
Patron
 
Posts: 11557
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:01 am
Location: Long Island, NY

Postby Shapley » Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:13 am

T/M

Thanks.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby Catmando » Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:52 am

Shapley wrote:I lost my father to cancer last November, and my younger brother to it last month.


I'm very sorry to hear about this Shapley. My thoughts are with you. To lose one family member or friend to cancer is too many.
Catmando
1st Chair
 
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:01 am

Postby Shapley » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:09 am

Cat,

Thanks. I had kept quiet about it during it all. I don't like to share my woes online. It's been a rough year. The friendly banter on the Bulletin Board is a real uplifter, and I hate to drag it down with tales of woe.

V/R
Shapley
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby Marye » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:08 am

Even so, Shapley, I too am sad to hear of your loss and am glad you mentioned it. A sorrow shared.

The handgun that was used to shoot my step son was stolen from the home of a law abiding citizen. I take no comfort that law abiding citizens have guns.

Two Christmases ago, teenage lads, each with their own handgun played shoot out on one of the major streets in Toronto. Just down the street from me, actually. It was the day after Christmas, boxing day shopping, 5 in the afternoon. They didn't kill each other but wounded the many people around them including killing a 20 year old woman who was out shopping with her mom. Tragedy. What if everyone had a gun and were able to return fire? Would you know who to shoot?
Marye
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Postby Shapley » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:28 am

Mary,

Thanks.

What if everyone had a gun and were able to return fire? Would you know who to shoot?


I don't think everyone should have a gun, but I think everyone who is not a felon or mentally impaired should have the right to own a gun. Having a right does not mandate exercising that right. I have the right to free speech which anyone who reads this bulletin board knows I exercise freely. :) I also have the right to remain silent, a right many probably wish I would exercise more often. :D

Would I know who to shoot? I don't know, nor would I probably try to figure it out. Having a gun does not imply using a gun. In such a case my concern would be trying to find shelter for the innocent which, in this case, would be defined as the unarmed. If I were carrying a firearm it's purpose would be for protection of the innocent, not so that I could add one more gun to the gunfight. If the shooters attempted to turn their firearms and threaten the unarmed, I would then know who to shoot.

V/R
Shapley
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby analog » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:14 pm

I think part youth's fascination with guns is the allure of forbidden fruit.

There's somethng to Ms Boo's tongue-in-cheek suggestion of grade school firearms safety training. Familiarity breeds contempt, or at least demystifies.

Another part is extension of primordial fang and claw.

The need is not really for more brains, the need is now for a gentler, a more tolerant people than those who won for us against the ice, the tiger, and the bear. The hand that hefted the ax, out of some old blind allegiance to the past, fondles the machine gun as lovingly.

It is a habit man will have to break to survive, but the roots go very deep.

--Loren Eisely


That's still a work in progress.
Cogito ergo doleo.
analog
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:01 am
Location: arkansas ozarks

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:12 pm

Editorial in LAT:

AS FOR THE European disdain for our criminal culture, many of those countries should not spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000, the rate at which people were robbed or assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Poland, Denmark and Sweden than it was in the United States. The assault rate in England was twice that in the United States. In the decade since England banned all private possession of handguns, the BBC reported that the number of gun crimes has gone up sharply.

Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence have also occurred in Europe. In recent years, 17 students and teachers were killed by a shooter in one incident at a German public school; 14 legislators were shot to death in Switzerland, and eight city council members were shot to death near Paris.

The main lesson that should emerge from the Virginia Tech killings is that we need to work harder to identify and cope with dangerously unstable personalities.

It is a problem for Europeans as well as Americans, one for which there are no easy solutions — such as passing more gun control laws.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
Haggis@wk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6055
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Home office

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:29 pm

analog wrote:
The need is not really for more brains, the need is now for a gentler, a more tolerant people than those who won for us against the ice, the tiger, and the bear. The hand that hefted the ax, out of some old blind allegiance to the past, fondles the machine gun as lovingly.

It is a habit man will have to break to survive, but the roots go very deep.

--Loren Eisely


That's still a work in progress.


Sadly, that just the kind of pacifist nonsense that perpetuates the twaddle that a "kinder and gentler world" is achievable if we just manage to break that nasty habit.

You want to break it in yourself? Get a lobotomy.

As for me, I'll hold on to the same skill set that allowed my forebears to maintain our family’s presence in the gene pool.

People who write nonsense like that believe they are ensconced in the same mythical safety those students were. I think I'm going to change my tag line to emphasize the point.

"Evil is inevitable, unpredictable and thus, unpreventable"™

Knowing that and being mentally prepared to respond when it happens is a better formula for a "peaceful" life.

I've got some saying.

"Only the dead know peace"

Or

"Only dead fish swim with the current"

Or

"People who beat their swords into plowshares often find themselves working for the people who kept their swords"

(That's a paraphrased quote by Robert A. Heinlein, I don't seem to have my Lazarus Long book in it's normal place in my bookcase, Selma'll correct me if I mis-remembered)

Actually, all three are more apt than Ms. Eisely's
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
Haggis@wk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6055
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Home office

Postby Shapley » Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:10 pm

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."
Robert Heinlein

How about: "There is peace in slavery". If only we'd get over our barbaric fixation with freedom, we could all live....or die.... peacefully. :roll:
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby Serenity » Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:17 pm

I doubt that any of the leaders of the World's Main religions set their principles by the use of weaponry.
Last edited by Serenity on Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Serenity
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4666
Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 12:01 am

Postby jamiebk » Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:32 pm

Serenity wrote:I doubt that any of the leaders of the World's Main religions set there principles by the use of weaponry.


Serenity...are you kidding? History is replete with religious wars...all in the name of the domination of one's own religion. It is certainly so today with the "Jihad". Weapons have changed, but they are still being used to advance one religion over another.
Jamie

"Leave it better than you found it"
jamiebk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4284
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:01 am
Location: SF Bay Area - Wine Country

Postby hal 9000 » Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:32 pm

Serenity wrote:I doubt that any of the leaders of the World's Main religions set there principles by the use of weaponry.


"Live by the sword, die by the sword"
Gentleman! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
hal 9000
1st Chair
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Postby Serenity » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:22 pm

jamiebk wrote:
Serenity wrote:I doubt that any of the leaders of the World's Main religions set there principles by the use of weaponry.


Serenity...are you kidding? History is replete with religious wars...all in the name of the domination of one's own religion. It is certainly so today with the "Jihad". Weapons have changed, but they are still being used to advance one religion over another.


I was just referring to Jesus Christ, Buddha, Confuscious, Ghandi, etc., not the people that use religion as an excuse.
Serenity
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4666
Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 12:01 am

Postby Serenity » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:24 pm

A 2002 federal study on common characteristics of school shooters found that 71 percent of them "felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack."

The report said that "in some of these cases the experience of being bullied seemed to have a significant impact on the attacker and appeared to have been a factor in his decision to mount an attack at the school. In one case, most of the attacker's schoolmates described the attacker as the kid everyone teased.
Serenity
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4666
Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 12:01 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Debate Team

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron