31 Dead In University Shootings

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Postby Marye » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:37 pm

analog wrote:Kids with no exposure to guns are of course fascinated by these mysterious powerful things. If their parents recoil at the word it only reinforces the allure.

I believe kids should be taught early the etiquette of constant awareness where the muzzle is pointing, and the reflex to first thing verify an empty chamber. Mine were.

Remove the mystery.


If kids are exposed to overeating they continue to overeat....
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Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:51 pm

dai bread wrote:Thanks, Haggis, for a very illuminating post. (A lamp post? :D )

I think we expect too much when we ask mainstream Muslims to deal with the radicals. I don't recall the Catholics doing much about the IRA, and Paisley's church kept such a low profile that I don't even know which one it is. I'm still amazed that that man wasn't defrocked.

Thanks, I try not to get too "preachy" sometimes and I probably succeed only about 50% of the time.

Qutb wrote two books that I can recommend to get an understanding where his brand of sociopolitical ideology came from.

The first is "Social Justice in Islam" It's a short read (I almost said it's an "easy" read...BIG mistake) and your library might have it, mine does. I have my own copy. While reading it I was reminded over and over again how much like Marx he sounded. Sweeping generalities based on almost no evidence. His prejudices and bigotry is very apparent, especially towards women. He never married because he couldn't find an appropriately docile woman of sufficient "moral purity and discretion."

Like most of his kind he was a raving bigot and frequently commented on blacks and women in the U.S.

The main book to read is "Milestones"

He wrote it in prison and it encapsulates perfectly what he thought had to be done to return the Muslim world to the 7th Century. You can find it online at YoungMuslims


One of the most common English language editions of Milestones was published by The Mother Mosque Foundation in 1981. It looks like an oversized pamphlet.

It's full of typos and has no index, no notes, no introduction to tell you who the author is. No doubt this is in part because "Milestones" was written in prison and smuggled out, and also because it was written for the "vanguard" of the revival of Islam rather than average Muslims (never mind non-Muslims). Be that as it may, although only 160 pages, non-Islamist readers may find it the lonnnggggest 160 pages they've ever read.

Remember, at the time he wrote this he was convinced that Islam had totally lost it's way. It "had been extinct for a few centuries" was how he put it.

... the Muslim community has long ago vanished from existence ... we can say that the Muslim community has been extinct for a few centuries, for this Muslim community does not denote the name of a land in which Islam resides, nor is it a people whose forefathers lived under the Islamic system at some earlier time. It is the name of a group of people whose manners, ideas and concepts, rules and regulations, values and criteria, are all derived from the Islamic source. The Muslim community with these characteristics vanished at the moment the laws of God became suspended on earth.
[p.9]

I earlier mentioned Jahiliyya, or “ignorance of divine guidance"

Our whole environment, people's beliefs and ideas, habits and art, rules and laws -- is Jahiliyyah, even to the extent that what we consider to be Islamic culture, Islamic sources, Islamic philosophy and Islamic thought are also constructs of Jahiliyyah!
[p.20]

This is key to what we are seeing in Iraq with Muslim on Muslim violence. The Qaedists don't consider the Muslims they are killing to BE Muslims. Those Muslims lost their way and killing them is not a sin.

.....sigh, sorry, preaching again. I could go on for hours and some probably think I already have. I know Serenity is unhappy with me for being a naysayer.

Read some of his material, think about his thoughts, decide for yourself.

He's the architect of modern radical Islam and most of the Islamic society has maintained a stony silence on his teaching and how they are being applied in the world and I find that most disturbing.

Someone said:

"Where is the Muslim Martin Luther King jr?"

A better question would be, "Where is the Muslim Martin Luther?"

P.S. his brother left Egypt after his execution and taught in Saudi Arabia. He was OBL's teacher.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Postby analog » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:29 pm

Marye wrote:

If kids are exposed to overeating they continue to overeat....


?? Kids who overeat compulsively are trying to fill a void ..... it's something other than food that is missing.
Cogito ergo doleo.
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Postby barfle » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:31 pm

Serenity wrote:My point, is that I do not believe that letting people carry firearms will solve the problem and will increase the likelihood of someone firing their weapon, whether they meant to or not.


As I noted, I believe the bar for purchasing a firearm should be fairly high - a demonstration of competence, much like is required to operate a motor vehicle. Yes, accidents happen with motor vehicles, but people operate them usually for a couple of hours a day. Quite frankly, I would feel far safer if I had confidence that someone (like me) could defend themselves. And "accidents" would be treated as though they were deliberate.

Guns aren't the problem. Outlaws are the problem.
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Postby analog » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:07 pm

Haggis: Re Your link to 'milestones', YoungMuslims -


I'm maybe a quarter through it. It's scarier than PNAC.

I think had I not recently read "The True Believer" I might have dismissed it. But it's a loose match in a tinderbox.

It's chillingly well done. Good matter for your Sharia Watch thread...
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Postby Schmeelkie » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:46 am

Serenity wrote:A 2002 federal study on common characteristics of school shooters found that 71 percent of them "felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack."

The report said that "in some of these cases the experience of being bullied seemed to have a significant impact on the attacker and appeared to have been a factor in his decision to mount an attack at the school. In one case, most of the attacker's schoolmates described the attacker as the kid everyone teased.


Bullying is also a major factor in adolescent suicide. Data from one of the studies I'm working on shows a strong correlation between experiencing bullying and considering/attempting suicide. Recommending mental health screening for victims of bullying, in addition to those showing signs of depression might not be a bad idea - in middle, high schools and colleges. As with physical health problems, prevention is much more effective than treatment after the fact. especially with suicides, where there is often no 'after the fact'.
"Up plus down equals flat" Pumpkin, 3 yrs, 10 mo, July '07
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Postby jamiebk » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:54 am

Schmeelkie wrote:
Serenity wrote:A 2002 federal study on common characteristics of school shooters found that 71 percent of them "felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack."

The report said that "in some of these cases the experience of being bullied seemed to have a significant impact on the attacker and appeared to have been a factor in his decision to mount an attack at the school. In one case, most of the attacker's schoolmates described the attacker as the kid everyone teased.


Bullying is also a major factor in adolescent suicide. Data from one of the studies I'm working on shows a strong correlation between experiencing bullying and considering/attempting suicide. Recommending mental health screening for victims of bullying, in addition to those showing signs of depression might not be a bad idea - in middle, high schools and colleges. As with physical health problems, prevention is much more effective than treatment after the fact. especially with suicides, where there is often no 'after the fact'.


This does not actually confirm that bullying took place. Only that the "shooter" felt bullied. It could be that the person was suffereing from some sort of persecution complex...hard to say what gets in these kids minds.
Jamie

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Postby analog » Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:45 pm

Serenity wrote:
In one case, most of the attacker's schoolmates described the attacker as the kid everyone teased.



From what little has been said about him, ridiculed as a kid and a loner, and bright enough to be contemplative of it (he was in advanced placement math), he must've fit that old Simon & Garfunkel dirge:
...
I am a rock,
I am an island.
Ive built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
Its laughter and its loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
...

I can understand his loneliness and feelings of isolation, and even his envy of people who are socially competent. But the thought that hurting them would somehow make him feel better just does not compute.

I remember as a kid identifying strongly with some of the silly music of the time - "Only the Lonely", "Oh Lonesome Me", "Great Pretender", "I Guess Things Happen That Way", all of which have discernible melodies and lyrics that encourage a 'stoic resignation' treatment for rejection.

Kids today grow up with very strange musical fare. My socialist son has scores of CD's of angry sounding young men shouting to arrhythmic electronic chaos and he seems able to to hear words amidst the din.

I note they used that genre for background in the most violent scenes of that "Natural Born Killers" movie. Socialist Son knew them all. What lyrics I could make out were shockers.

As Barfle observes, "Change Happens".
Why these parallel shifts to violence in both pop culture and everyday life? Which one is the reflection?

Poor Judd is Dead, but Toto, I don't think we're in Oklahoma anymore.
Cogito ergo doleo.
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Postby Serenity » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:51 pm

jamiebk wrote:
Schmeelkie wrote:
Serenity wrote:A 2002 federal study on common characteristics of school shooters found that 71 percent of them "felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack."

The report said that "in some of these cases the experience of being bullied seemed to have a significant impact on the attacker and appeared to have been a factor in his decision to mount an attack at the school. In one case, most of the attacker's schoolmates described the attacker as the kid everyone teased.


Bullying is also a major factor in adolescent suicide. Data from one of the studies I'm working on shows a strong correlation between experiencing bullying and considering/attempting suicide. Recommending mental health screening for victims of bullying, in addition to those showing signs of depression might not be a bad idea - in middle, high schools and colleges. As with physical health problems, prevention is much more effective than treatment after the fact. especially with suicides, where there is often no 'after the fact'.


This does not actually confirm that bullying took place. Only that the "shooter" felt bullied. It could be that the person was suffereing from some sort of persecution complex...hard to say what gets in these kids minds.


Jamiebk :"This does not actually confirm that bullying took place. Only that the "shooter" felt bullied".

If the shooter felt bullied, does it matter whether you confirm that bullying took place by your definition? Is not shooting 30+ people with videotapes blaming certain "groups of people" as the cause of your anger enough of a confirmation?

Bullying is a consistent, repeated pattern of psychological harassment or abuse. Harassment is persistent torment. Abuse takes it one step further by causing hurt or injury by mistreatment whether physical or psychological. Anxiety is a state of apprehension, uncertainty and fear resulting from the anticipation of a realistic or fantasized threatening event that impairs physical or psychological functioning.

Targets of bullying have two characteristics: a desire to cooperate and a non-confrontational interpersonal style.

Patterns of General Harassment include:
1. Criticism on a regular and frequent basis;
2. Constant refusal to acknowledge someone's contributions, achievements or intrinsic value;
3. Ignoring, isolating, separating, excluding, marginalizing the Target;
4. Belittling, demeaning and patronizing.

Health Effects of Harassment:
1. High level of stress and anxiety
2. Constant fatigue
3. Sleepless nights, waking up early and more tired than before bedtime
4. Poor concentration
5. Forgetfulness
6. Uncharacteristic irritability and angry outbursts (road rage, short temper)
7. Constantly on edge
8. Depression from feelings of hopelessness, anger and futility
9. Shattered self-confidence, low self-worth, low self-esteem

All abuse is violent; be it physical, emotional, psychological or a combination. The common denominator to all abuse is harassment.

Schmeelkie, you are working on something very commendable. It is something sorely needed in schools and even in the workplace.
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Postby Serenity » Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:41 pm

Haggis, I'm not unhappy with you for being a naysayer. I am merely frustrated by the fact that the arguments on the Middle East seem one-sided on the bulletin board to the point that it skews opinion in the direction of fear. The situation is very complex and it is hard to comment on beliefs that one is not very familiar with.

I understand your concerns on the radical and terrorist factions of political groups that use "religion" as a platform for their behavior; they are the extreme. I know Islam is as diverse and varied in breadth as Christianity is. I am as concerned about fundamentalist Islam as I am about the Christian fundamentalist streak in American politics today.

I find it strange that Al-Qaeda would base their group on the writing of Qutby; he seems outdated and wrote his stuff from prison (probably not very happy). They are just using his material as an excuse for their actions.

I find it commendable that you have read the Koran. I doubt many Christians have read the Bible completely and are knowledgeable. Pickthall is probably the original translation. It doesn't matter.....to be honest, I'm not into literal translations or interpretations of religious literature. I'm a "big picture" sort-of-person. This would not fly with Muslims who believe the Koran is the actual word of God. We also have Christians who believe the Bible is the actual word of God. Not my gig....I'm more skeptical. To me, if something feels right, keep doing it; if it feels wrong, stop doing it and try to understand why it doesn't feel good.

I really hope the Iraqis can take a break from the violence. I can't imagine trying to live my life here while gunfire is happening all around me as I try to send my kids to school, go to work, not worry about bills, the next meal or where my nearest relative has vanished. I'm just going to hug the Iraqi I know......... :grouphug:
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Postby Shapley » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:32 am

My own recollection from my youth is that nearly everyone is bullied, at least at some time in their life. Even bullies are frequentlied bullied - by parents or older siblings - their bullying is often a response to it. Granted, there are those who are bullied more than others, and some who seem to find themselves permanent targets of bullies, but if you do a post-mortem on almost anyone you can say that they were 'bullied' at some point in their life.

How we deal with adversity determines who we are, it is the measure of the man. The Virginia Tech shooter did not deal well with his problems, whether real or perceived, and in the end he became the bully, and then took a cowards way out. To attempt to justify his actions by bestowing martyrdom or victimhood on him belittles those who rise above situations that are similar, or worse.

I do not pretend to know what his past situation may have been. It appears, however, that his family fled to this country and, from very humble beginnings, were able to provide him a good education, even to the point of sending him to a fine college, so that he could have a firm foundation to build upon and to rise above the poverty that he decried. That he failed to do so is a great dishonour to his parents, his teachers, and all the others who sought to give him the opportunity to succeed. My sympathy is reserved for the innocent people that he killed, and for the families left behind.

In this world of ours, where mass-murderers now kill by the hundreds and the thousands, another thirty-three innocent deaths will soon be just a footnote in the history books. Thirty-three lives cut short, thirty-three opportunities lost, thirty-three granite markers. Life goes on. The great sadness here is that one man fell short of the measure that is manhood, and in falling, pulled thirty-two others into the grave with him.

We must teach people to rise above the limitations life imposes on them. We should not excuse people from horrendous crimes because of those limitations.

V/R
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Postby Shapley » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:33 pm

So, what do you do with something like this?

Student charged for writing violent essay

The creative writing assignment in Lee's English class on Monday instructed students to "write whatever comes to your mind. Do not judge or censor what you are writing," according to a copy of the assignment.


I would say the D.A. has no case.
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Postby Trumpetmaster » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:40 pm

Shapley,

I agree with you...
Just the timing of this was pretty bad....

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Postby Shapley » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:06 pm

The timing is bad. The writing is bad. It's in very poor taste, and may show the symptoms of a problem within....but... it is within the scope of the assignment.

I suspect most of us, even if those were the thoughts that came to mind, would ignore the assignment and 'judge or censor' the work before handing it in.

Still, it does not appear to be a legal matter. The police must be kept very busy raiding bookstores in Cary, IL. :(

V/R
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Postby Shapley » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:16 pm

Health Effects of Harassment:
1. High level of stress and anxiety
2. Constant fatigue
3. Sleepless nights, waking up early and more tired than before bedtime
4. Poor concentration
5. Forgetfulness
6. Uncharacteristic irritability and angry outbursts (road rage, short temper)
7. Constantly on edge
8. Depression from feelings of hopelessness, anger and futility
9. Shattered self-confidence, low self-worth, low self-esteem


Well, I have had most of those symptoms, but the only one bullying me is Father Time...
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Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:52 pm

Targets of bullying have two characteristics: a desire to cooperate and a non-confrontational interpersonal style.

This wouldn't seem to describe Cho. Bullying behavior is real, and is a real problem; but not everyone who feels picked on is necessarily correct. And there are some people who are so excessively weird that they just don't fit in any normal group or situation. I think that Cho was probably one of these, and was weirder than the people around him suspected.

In my perhaps simple-minded way, I'm inclined to view terrorists, arsonists, and random murderers as either completely nuts, or just outright evil. I sincerely doubt that there is a reliable fix for either condition. There's no reliable way to predict which weird citizens will choose violence.

There are options which other citizens need to be able to invoke, should one of the unbalanced begin a shooting spree in their immediate area. Short of violence, I'm inclined to let the weird ducks paddle their own way in the world.
>^..^<
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Postby Serenity » Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:17 am

I am not exonerating Cho for the wrong he did. I just wanted to bring to light where he may have been coming from since, in these tragedies, everyone obviously wonders "why".

What I did not point out, though, was that Cho was mentally ill and should have been in care of a professional. He was either psychotic or a psychopath or a sociopath. He was not in touch with reality and had difficulty relating to others. That should have been enough for someone to refer him to a counselor, whether he was willing to see one or not.

Also, Mental Health professionals are obligated to protect a patient's rights and are limited in the situations where a patient's mental health can be discussed with others, including parents. Maybe this policy that should change. The fact that he was able to purchase a gun that should not have been available to him would not have happened if there were an anonymous, national database where health professionals could input his name or SSN or file number and a statement that he should not be able to purchase a gun until further review as soon as someone had recommended him to a counselor.
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Postby analog » Tue May 01, 2007 9:05 pm

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld ... news-print

RICHMOND, Va. - The governor yesterday closed the loophole in state law that allowed the Virginia Tech gunman to buy weapons despite a court ruling that he was a threat and needed psychiatric counseling.

Gov. Timothy M. Kaine issued an executive order requiring that a database of people banned from buying guns include the name of anyone who is found to be dangerous and ordered to get involuntary mental health treatment.


Sounds like a good thing. I hope it stays so.
Cogito ergo doleo.
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Postby analog » Tue May 01, 2007 10:11 pm

Cho's two Engish class plays can be seen here , warning - no place for sensitive hearts....
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/ ... uis-plays/

This is interesting postulation on programming kids for violence:
http://www.nospank.net/armstrng.htm
A grain of salt and a grain of truth.....


Homer & Jethro's quip, "Soon there'll be psychiatrists in ev'ry Sears 'n Roebuck store", might come to be. That'd be okay. The EAP's have done considerable good in the workplace.

a.
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Postby dai bread » Thu May 03, 2007 10:12 pm

Nothing much there that isn't on TV nightly.
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