Another blue-dog liberal turns traitor!

Everyone loves a healthy debate. Post an idea or comment about a current event or issue. Let others post their ideas also. This area is for those who love to explore other points of view.

Moderator: Nicole Marie

Postby piqaboo » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:02 pm

They are used to include people without examining specifics. They can be valuable tools, and they can be used to tar a large group of people by association and without justification. Your post had the feel of the latter.
Altoid - curiously strong.
piqaboo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 7135
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Paradise (So. Cal.)

Postby Shapley » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:09 pm

My post achieved the purpose for which it was written.

From noontime on Friday until I posted that, there were few, if any posts on the bulletin board. Since posting that, this topic alone has generated over a page of responses. Sometimes you have to light a fire if you want a little heat.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby Shapley » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:57 pm

3350 American soldiers are dead (our kids)
$400,000,000,000
4 (plus) years of trying

Hardly a "broken promise". Seems like this is enough already.


You've never heard the saying: "You break it, you buy it"?

We lost over 50,000 U.S. lives in Vietnam (our brothers). They went there to accomplish something and, just when victory was within reach, it was pulled from us. The lives of 50,000+ suddenly had no meaning, their duty was for naught. Is that what we are asking of those 3350 soldiers who've gone to Iraq, as well. To die for nothing? We can achieve victory there, and we must. The cost of failure will be higher than you can imagine.

V/R
Shapley
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby jamiebk » Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:36 pm

Shap, you do NOT have a monopoly on the truth of this situation.
Jamie

"Leave it better than you found it"
jamiebk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4284
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:01 am
Location: SF Bay Area - Wine Country

Postby Shapley » Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:40 pm

Shap, you do NOT have a monopoly on the truth of this situation.


Perhaps not, but I have hotels on Park Place and Boardwalk. :D
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby analog » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:12 pm

Looks like Bin Laden was right when he predicted American public would tire of the fight. That he's our enemy makes his capitalizing on our apathy a bitter pill to swallow.

I do hope that radicalism falls from popular favor among Islamics and his movement likewise falls apart.

Not a lot of news out that'd make you think it's happening, though.

Send more bluejeans and Ipods to the youth over there.
Cogito ergo doleo.
analog
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:01 am
Location: arkansas ozarks

Postby piqaboo » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:29 pm

Shapley wrote:From noontime on Friday until I posted that, there were few, if any posts on the bulletin board. Since posting that, this topic alone has generated over a page of responses. Sometimes you have to light a fire if you want a little heat.

Or you could look at the calendar, and realize you've simply got a correlation, not a cause/effect.
Noon Friday til Monday am, the board is quiet, then it picks up.
Lets see - is it Shap's post or is there another reasonable cause for the change in post-frequency?

Where do most posters post from? Work you say?
What days do most posters go to the office? M-F you say?
Altoid - curiously strong.
piqaboo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 7135
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Paradise (So. Cal.)

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:30 pm

analog wrote:Looks like Bin Laden was right when he predicted American public would tire of the fight. That he's our enemy makes his capitalizing on our apathy a bitter pill to swallow.


That our "apathy" is built on the wrong war(invading Iraq) doesn't factor in? It's just another case of "you're either with us, or with the terrorists"?

Show of hands, please, how many here thought going into Afghanistan was a mistake?
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

http://www.one.org
OperaTenor
Patron
 
Posts: 10457
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Paradise with Piq & Altoid, southern California

Postby Shapley » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:47 pm

Noon Friday til Monday am, the board is quiet, then it picks up.


I logged in at 6:00 A.M. (CST) and there were about twenty new posts, meaning that many of those were posted on Sunday. Saturday, while I was browsing, I would periodically check the 'who is online' box. They came, they saw, they left. That is why I started re-reading old topics. After posting my message, I logged off until last night. There were four replies to this topic which, I might add, has been idle since Febrary 13th.

I would say I can reasonably claim some credit for rekindling the fire. Image

V/R
Shapley
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:58 pm

Yeah, so how's the suit holding up these days?
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

http://www.one.org
OperaTenor
Patron
 
Posts: 10457
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Paradise with Piq & Altoid, southern California

Postby analog » Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:32 pm

OperaTenor wrote:
analog wrote:Looks like Bin Laden was right when he predicted American public would tire of the fight. That he's our enemy makes his capitalizing on our apathy a bitter pill to swallow.


That our "apathy" is built on the wrong war(invading Iraq) doesn't factor in?


I repeat an earlier post, to effect the correctness of a difficult decision is usually determined by the follow-through. That's why it was a difficult choice, outcome could go either way. Had we succeeded in establishing that vision of a functioning democracy with "sunnis and shiites working side by side" as painted in Bush's prewar speech, we'd be heroes just as in Berlin after the airlift. But we didn't and we aren't. Would more public support really have made any difference? I don't know, but like to think we could've done it.

Regardless how right or wrong it looks in hindsight, it's a big pile of propaganda chips for OBL.

It's just another case of "you're either with us, or with the terrorists"?
No, it's another hard lesson to be learned from.


Show of hands, please, how many here thought going into Afghanistan was a mistake?
Surrounding Iran on two sides by taking Iraq as well was probably a good military move, looking ahead. But it's turned out an abysmal political one. The move on Afghanistan will probably be judged by its outcome as well.

On the positive side we've got Pakistan and Iran's atomic weapons programs into the public eye. Maybe Syria's got one too. And it looks like the ordinary Afghanis are enjoying more freedom at least for now.

a.
Cogito ergo doleo.
analog
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:01 am
Location: arkansas ozarks

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:47 pm

All of that ignores the reasoning used to popularize invading, and the level of ease and reception of the invasion. When were we ever told by GWB that the point of invading Iraq was to surround Iran on two sides?!

As for Afghanistan, the point of my comment was that I know of no one who thought going into Afghanistan, getting UBL and his sponsors was the wrong thing to do. IIRC, we had the support of the entire free world on that one.
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

http://www.one.org
OperaTenor
Patron
 
Posts: 10457
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Paradise with Piq & Altoid, southern California

Postby barfle » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:24 pm

Shapley wrote:Barfle,

I single out no one person. Collectively, according to the polls, 69% - 75% of the people of this country supported the war in Iraq at the outset, swept up in the passion of the moment, supposedly. The Resolution authorizing the action was supported by a similar percentage of the Congress, about 65% of the House and about 75% of the Senate. Now that the consequences of that vote are coming to fruition, and I will acknowledge that it has been a difficult pregnancy, many of those swept up in the passion of the moment are having second thoughts, and the desire to abort is growing in popularity. As I said to Jamie, I find it telling that the move to abort the war comes largely from the same political party that supports the 'right' to abort fetii.


I didn't say you singled out anyone. In fact, I said just the opposite, that you were making very broad accusations, with nothing to back them up. And the connection you're making between those who oppose the war and those who support freedom of choice is simply demonizing those who disagree with you.

I consider myself pretty much a Goldwater conservative. If you're old enough, or if you've read the history, Goldwater ran for President during the Viet Nam war. He was not in favor of the war (and I think anyone who is in favor of war should be committed to an institution), but he was in favor of far different tactics than his opponent. Sadly, Barry's dead, so his wisdom is not available to us, and I won't try to say what his advice would have been. But I'm sure you can find messages from me in the days before the war that I felt it would be a terrible thing to do because it was based on inadequate information (mostly from what I considered to be "yes men"). I have, over time, variously felt that we needed to "go, and sin no more," stay and clean up the mess we made, and now I don't feel as though we are the appropriate agent to clean up ANY mess.

I just hope we've learned our lesson about poking our noses in hornets' nests.
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby barfle » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:39 pm

Shapley wrote:I think the problem with understanding my point is that people look at abortion, the war, etc., as a seperate issues rather than as symptoms of a single issue - a national attitude toward responsibility, duty, and life in general.

Of course they are separate issues. However, if you want to discuss responsibility, let's take a look at how responsible those you feel in opposition to have been acting.

Andrea Yates killed her five children. Her husband would not let her have an abortion, and, in fact, wanted her to basically be a baby factory, in spite of her obvious mental incapacity. I'm pretty sure there are very few people who would say that it was better that she drowned her children than if she had had them aborted before they could have fear or feel pain.

How much responsibility do we bear for the deaths of something like 60,000 innocent Iraqi civilians that have died either as a direct result of our military force, or by the bombings carried out by insurgents? I say all of them, and exposing more of them to the same thing is irresponsible.

You don't have a lock on morality, responsibility, or duty. The invasion of Iraq was badly handled from before 9/11, and I have no faith whatsoever that we will figure out how to handle it any better. It's said that doing the same thing repeatedly in the expectation of different results is the path to insanity. I'm not saying you're nuts, but I am saying you're wrong.
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby barfle » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:43 pm

OperaTenor wrote:Just like recent administrations have aborted our commitment to the Great Society?

Well, at least they have done SOME good things! Thanks for pointing that out.
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby barfle » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:45 pm

Shapley wrote:We created an obligation, assumed a debt, and that obligation has to be honoured, the debt has to be paid.

Expecting the current methods to pay the debt is like expecting the arsonist to rebuild your house. Yes, he owes you, but do you REALLY want that sort of payback?
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby barfle » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:48 pm

Shapley wrote:I would say I can reasonably claim some credit for rekindling the fire. Image

So you're trolling?
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Postby Shapley » Tue May 01, 2007 8:48 am

I didn't say you singled out anyone. In fact, I said just the opposite, that you were making very broad accusations, with nothing to back them up. And the connection you're making between those who oppose the war and those who support freedom of choice is simply demonizing those who disagree with you.


I'm merely making an observation based on what I've seen. I haven't done extensive research, but then I'm not a researcher and this isn't a thesis, just an observation. It is no more or less scientific than any of the many claims made on this board about the reasons for supporting or opposing the current action in Iraq. As I've said, Jamie brought the subject of abortion into a thread on the war. I found it humourous at first that the thread had been hijacked so, and then the connection struck me. I posted my thoughts on it, which is what we do here on the board.

I'm not saying you're nuts, but I am saying you're wrong.


I've been called nuts before, and I've been wrong before. In this case, however, I don't believe that I am. I'm not the first to suggest that America has lost a sense of commitment, a loss of duty, and/or a loss of honour. I may be the first to link that perceived loss to both abortion and the war, but I doubt even that is true. I try to look at what has happened in America that has led to such things a mall shootings, university shootings, widespread abortion, abandonment of commitment, high divorce rates, and general rudeness. I've come to conclusion that this things are all connected, that they are symptoms of one big issue. Gibbon says an empire doesn't fall from without until it has collapsed within, and I think we are collapsing within. We've lost our national sense of duty, our sense of honour.

I don't pretend to have a lock on morality. Far from it. I've fallen from grace more often than I care to imagine. I do, however, recognize when I am far from it.

I'm not so naive as to pretend that this nation, nor any nation, has not gone through periods of similar distress and survived or even become greater. Germany lost two world wars and retains its national heritage, its sense of honour, and its standing in the world. We gave up on the war in Vietnam, abandoning our commitment there, and survived to be the country that elected Ronaldus Maximus. We can abandon this war and we may well survive, we may even be perceived as better for doing so (but I doubt it).

I do think the President Bush has done damage to this nation, but I think he has done so for different reasons than you, OT, or Jamie believe. I believe, however, that the dishonesty of the Democrats, and their unwillingness to cooperate (while chiding the President for the same thing) has done considerably more damage than anything this President or his administration has done. I think the war has not been fought in the best manner, but I don't agree that it should never have been fought. I also believe that, even if this war could have been avoided, because the commitment to engage in it was made, it has to be brought to conclusion, by victory, by negotiated treaty, or by other honourable means. It should not be ended by simply abandoning the cause or, to use the oft-repeated analogy, taking our toys and going home because we don't like the way the game is played.

The tactics we're seeing in this war are the tactics we will see in the future, whether in the streets of Baghdad, the streets of Tehran, the streets of London, or the streets of New York. We have to learn to counter them, to stop them, to defeat them. If they are allowed to successfully deter us from duty, then there will be more, not less, of them in the future.

Search your heart, Grasshopper, you know it to be true.

V/R
Shapley
Last edited by Shapley on Tue May 01, 2007 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby Shapley » Tue May 01, 2007 8:52 am

So you're trolling?


Perhaps. I think I've stirred thought, passion, and response. Is this a bad thing?
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Postby jamiebk » Tue May 01, 2007 9:25 am

[quote="ShapleyAs I've said, Jamie brought the subject of abortion into a thread on the war. I found it humourous at first that the thread had been hijacked so, and then the connection struck me. I posted my thoughts on it, which is what we do here on the board. [/quote]
#################################
E-X-C-U-S-E me!!!........ At NO time did I bring up the topic of abortion and the war. I responded to OT's post on U.S. Shari'a watch (below)

And by the way....I believe that I was the one who suggested in that same thread that the topic did not belong there and should be moved to another forum.

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT MAN, and please stop including me in your over-generalizations about duty, responsibility, obligations and how they relate to to my stand on abortion, Iraq, Vietnam or anything else.

########################
Joined: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 9251
Location: Paradise with Piq & Altoid, southern California
Posted: 18 Apr 2007 10:40 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Selma in Sandy Eggo wrote:
I find I'm getting less and less tolerant of other people inflicting their religious beliefs on me. Cabbies that won't transport some fares (and, according to that posted link of Shap's, put some passengers out of the cab short of their destination!), pharmacists who won't dispense some medications, grocery checkers who won't check some groceries.

Dang it, if you won't do part of the job, you're not qualified to hold the job. In every single job I've ever had, the ability to do the job was a job qualification, and refusal to perform the duties of the job was cause for termination. Employers must make reasonable accomodation for their employees' religious beliefs, it's true, but in my opinion that reasonable accomodation would be more on the order of arranging the weekly schedule to accomodate various religious services, as much as possible.


You'll soon be able to add doctors and health care providers to this list.

Justices uphold ban on abortion procedure

Since this will be interpreted to include Intact D&E, which is the prevalent method and presents the lowest risk to the mother, you'll soon see doctors and health care providers opting out of performing them in favor of riskier procedures, such as abdominal extraction, or inducing self-termination, both of which put the mother at far greater risk. This idiotic and evil legislation doesn't draw any distinction, so it will be broadly interpreted.

Time to write our Congresscritters(tip of the hat to Selma) and urge them to repeal this idiocy.

_________________
"To help mend the world is true

#######################
My response:
jamiebk
3rd Chair

Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 702
Location: SF Bay Area - Wine Country
Posted: 18 Apr 2007 07:31 pm Post subject:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A really fine day for the politicians who think they are doctors.
_________________
Jamie
Jamie

"Leave it better than you found it"
jamiebk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4284
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:01 am
Location: SF Bay Area - Wine Country

PreviousNext

Return to The Debate Team

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]

cron