search and seizure

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Postby shostakovich » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:37 pm

I imagine some Congress people seeing bad (illegal, unethical, immoral) behavior from colleagues, and thinking, "If they can do it, why can't I?" Some will go so far as to feel stupid if they don't, and imagine their colleagues considering them stupid. Thus they practically HAVE to do it to stay credible with their contemporaries.

The problem is lack of oversight and all-too-rare punishment.

Maybe we should have a system by which the electoral winner has to give the loser the job of oversight. Either that will work, or there will be a lot of bipartisan corruption --- er, cooperation (between winner and loser).
Shos
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Re: search and seizure

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue May 27, 2008 3:41 pm

Michael C. v. Gresbach.

A social worker entered a private school, without warrant and demanded to see two children she suspected had been spanked by their parents. She demanded the school not contact the parents and also denied any school official to be in the room while she “questioned” the children. The course of her “questioning” also included her forcing the children to partially disrobe in order for her to “examine” them for evidence of abuse. What was particularly alarming, according to the parents’ and children’s attorney, is the fact that this social worker’s behavior was not unusual

“The social worker performed these strip searches as a matter of routine, estimating that in perhaps one-half of the 300 or so cases she handled every year she subjected kids to a partial disrobing,” he said. “In fact, she testified that she considered it so routine that she did not bother to discuss her intentions with her supervisor, even though she spoke to her on her way to the school.”

The state had several social workers file affidavits saying they would have followed the same procedure. Crampton said, “That is an alarming admission, and we suspect you would find a similar pattern in social service offices all over America.”



The social worker maintained not only did she have a “right” to conduct such a search but that she was immune from lawsuit.

Happily, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously disagreed with her:

“While we recognize that ‘child welfare caseworkers are often called upon to make difficult decisions without the benefit of extended deliberation’ in order to prevent ‘the most vulnerable members of society, children of tender years, from being physically abused,’ Heck, 327 F.3d at 525, we do not believe that requiring a child welfare caseworker to act in accordance with basic Fourth Amendment principles is an undue burden on the child welfare system, particularly when it is necessary to conduct an examination of a child’s body, which is undoubtedly ‘frightening, humiliating, and intrusive’ to the child. At the time Gresbach conducted the searches at Good Hope in 2004, there was a clearly established doctrine as to what actions a Bureau caseworker must take when conducting a child abuse investigation at a private school.”


What do you know? Parents do have Constitutional rights!

Even parents in private, Christian schools.

Whodda thunk it?

My fear is that this is probably more common than we would think. A friend retired from the USAF in 1994 and got a job as a social worker in Illinois. He told me similar stories and was surprised when I questioned the legalities of his action. He clearly had drunk the koolaid when he told me the states right to protect children superceded the Constitution. And this came from a person who'd been a criminal investigator for 20+ years!!!
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: search and seizure

Postby Shapley » Tue May 27, 2008 4:01 pm

In Illinois, we're told that Game Wardens (or 'Conservation Police') have the right to enter your home and examine your freezer for evidence of poaching, sans warrant. I have asked them about this, and how they justify it with the Constitution, and they claim that the law is written that way. I do not know exactly how the need to protect a dead animal carcass can outweigh the Constitutional protection against warrantless searches, but many in the State of Illinois seem to think it does.

To be fair, while I often hear this argument, even from conservation agents, I've never known anyone who has been subjected to such a search, with the exception of taxidermists. It is my understanding that the license to engage in taxidermy specifically requires the licensee to allow such searches as a term of license. I've said before that one may sign away ones' rights and that would seem to be an instance of that occuring. I guess it all depends on how badly one wants to be a taxidermist.

V/R
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Re: search and seizure

Postby piqaboo » Wed May 28, 2008 12:57 pm

Sounds like a form of sexual abuse of the children, if one chooses to twist it that way.
And, how can a case worker 'deny' the presence of a school official?
Is she gonna pick the person up and remove them?
'Cause if it were happening in my school, that's what the case worker would have to do.
I'd have gender-matched teachers in there observing.

I have to think whether I the principal would have called the parents as well. Child abuse is tricky and Im not that familiar with the relevant laws.

But 'spanking'? Not 'beating'?
What kind of evidence was she expecting to see? Even a red mark only lasts an hour or so, says the recipient of more than one childhood spanking.

BTW, if Altoid hits me, is she breaking the law? Can I tell her so?
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: search and seizure

Postby Haggis@wk » Wed May 28, 2008 3:32 pm

piqaboo wrote:Sounds like a form of sexual abuse of the children, if one chooses to twist it that way.
And, how can a case worker 'deny' the presence of a school official?
Is she gonna pick the person up and remove them?
'Cause if it were happening in my school, that's what the case worker would have to do.
I'd have gender-matched teachers in there observing.

I have to think whether I the principal would have called the parents as well. Child abuse is tricky and Im not that familiar with the relevant laws.

But 'spanking'? Not 'beating'?
What kind of evidence was she expecting to see? Even a red mark only lasts an hour or so, says the recipient of more than one childhood spanking.

BTW, if Altoid hits me, is she breaking the law? Can I tell her so?



Piq,

Most CPS either have or assume authority that most Americans would be appalled to learn about. Based on previous run ins with CPS investigators in Maryland, Illinois, and California (professionally, I hasten to add!) I have seen them do good things, removing children from threatening environments, but some of those things would have landed anyone else into a losing lawsuit if it involved anything other than children.

And every now and then they err so much that they take away children when they shouldn't have and it takes years sometime to get them back. There have been a few recent ones when children were taken away from grandparents while the parent(s) are deployed because the parents didn't fill out the right forms or some such.

When I was in England the Social Services could force parents to take "parenting" classes and if the refused they could take the children. That's when I really decided that Nannyism is quite possibly the most destructive form of government there is.

As for 'Toid, It depends on her current age. Just a little Googling will turn up reports of 7 and 8 year olds being arrested for assault.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: search and seizure

Postby barfle » Thu May 29, 2008 10:50 am

Having spent more than a few sessions on the receiving end of corporal punishment, I'm pretty certain that removal from my parents' house would have been far more traumatic and damaging than the pain I was (usually) justified in receiving.

But nobody broke my bones, nobody caused me to bleed, nobody removed any hair or teeth (unless they were well on their way out already, and not as a punishment), so whatever damage was caused (if any) has long since healed. Well, except for the mental anguish caused by several RCC nuns.
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Re: search and seizure

Postby Haggis@wk » Thu May 29, 2008 3:00 pm

barfle wrote:Having spent more than a few sessions on the receiving end of corporal punishment, I'm pretty certain that removal from my parents' house would have been far more traumatic and damaging than the pain I was (usually) justified in receiving.

But nobody broke my bones, nobody caused me to bleed, nobody removed any hair or teeth (unless they were well on their way out already, and not as a punishment), so whatever damage was caused (if any) has long since healed. Well, except for the mental anguish caused by several RCC nuns.


An email along the lines of barfle's comment.




Tough Love vs. Spanking ~
(a psychological conundrum)

It seems that these days most Americans think it is improper to spank children, so over the years I tried other methods to control my kids when they had one of "those moments."

One that I found effective is for me to just take the child for a car ride and talk.

They usually calm down and stop misbehaving
After our car ride together.

This worked so well for my children that I now use the method on my grandchildren.

I've included a photo below of one of my sessions
With my grandson, in case you would like to use the technique
.

scroll down





Image
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: search and seizure

Postby Shapley » Thu May 29, 2008 3:07 pm

My uncle used to take me swimming. He'd take me out the lake and toss me out of the boat, and make me swim to shore.

It was a short swim, and really easy once I got the sack untied....
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Re: search and seizure

Postby Shapley » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:18 am

Google Must Divulge You-Tube Viewing Log

If you've ever watched a video on You-tube (and most of us have), Viacom now has a right to know about it.
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Re: search and seizure

Postby jamiebk » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:19 am

Shapley wrote:Google Must Divulge You-Tube Viewing Log

If you've ever watched a video on You-tube (and most of us have), Viacom now has a right to know about it.


I kind-of figure that anything I do on line is "watched". Creeps me out, but unfortunately that is the fact of it.
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Re: search and seizure

Postby Haggis@wk » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:05 pm

jamiebk wrote:
Shapley wrote:Google Must Divulge You-Tube Viewing Log

If you've ever watched a video on You-tube (and most of us have), Viacom now has a right to know about it.


I kind-of figure that anything I do on line is "watched". Creeps me out, but unfortunately that is the fact of it.


Ah! but if you have ever watched anything that belongs to Viacom you can expect to receive a bill plus interest and possibly a fine......The courts and congress have given them that authority.

personally, I trust NSA more than I do Viacom
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: search and seizure

Postby piqaboo » Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:18 am

Somewhere, we have a photo of James Otis' headstone & epitaph. It would be appropriate posted about here.
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Re: search and seizure

Postby Shapley » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:14 pm

Sen. Obama takes heat from Sen. McCain's Campaign Over Vote On Terror Surveillance Bill.

The bill, which includes the provision granting immunity to telecommunications firms, passed the Senate 69-28. Sen. Obama voted in favour of the bill.
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