The Unnecessary War

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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:43 pm

I don't know if luring al Qaeda to Iraq was intentional, but I believe that, were it so, it would not be talked about in public. It's not the kind of thing you want leaked out. I think, however, that the conditions in Iraq were better suited to defeating them than the conditions in Afghanistan. Of course, if we made it known we wanted them there, they probably would have declined the invitation.

President Bush said there would be actions taken that will remain secret, even in victory. This may be one of them. I believe in covert planning, and I don't believe that, in war or poker, you put all your cards on the table 'til the hand is over.

I am convinced that even the President is not aware of all the things the military leaders cook up. I believe, for instance, that the bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Kosovo in 1999 was intentional, because I believe valuable parts or documents from a stealth bomber that had been downed some weeks earlier had made their way to the Embassy. I believe that, even if I'm correct, you'll probably never hear it admitted. I believe such actions are carried out, even though they put the careers of those behind them in danger, because there are military men who value national security above job security.

I also believe this President puts national security above job approval. His intent is to win the war on terror, although he will not reveal all the tactics involved, even though it drag his popularity and his influence down the drain.

I'm not saying he is always right in his decisions, quite the contrary. I do think, however, that he is sincere about them.

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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:55 pm

Horse leather!
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby jamiebk » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:03 pm

Shap, you missed your calling...you should be writing fiction with Clancy.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:03 pm

OperaTenor wrote:Horse leather!


Always nice to have a debate with you. Your well-thought-out and honest replies keep the debate on a level of decency not seen on most online discussion boards. :roll:
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:10 pm

jamiebk wrote:Shap, you missed your calling...you should be writing fiction with Clancy.


I suppose I should accept the reality that the President of the United States wrote a series of bills designed to strip Americans of their Constitutional rights, then orchestrated a terrorist attack on a major city that resulted in thousands of deaths. In the aftermath of that attack, he forced through his measures, effectively making himself a dictator. With his new-found power, he waged war against a peace-loving but mis-understood dictator, forcing him from power and seizing control of his oil fields, allowing him to manipulate world oil prices, enriching his friends and colleagues.

Nah.

BTW, the Guardian agrees with me that the Chinese Embassy bombing was intentional, but they disagree on the reasons. They do confirm that the 'wrong map' story was a 'damned lie', though.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby jamiebk » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:13 pm

Shapley wrote:
jamiebk wrote:Shap, you missed your calling...you should be writing fiction with Clancy.


I suppose I should accept the reality that the President of the United States wrote a series of bills designed to strip Americans of their Constitutional rights, then orchestrated a terrorist attack on a major city that resulted in thousands of deaths. In the aftermath of that attack, he forced through his measures, effectively making himself a dictator. With his new-found power, he waged war against a peace-loving but mis-understood dictator, forcing him from power and seizing control of his oil fields, allowing him to manipulate world oil prices, enriching his friends and colleagues.

Nah.

BTW, the Guardian agrees with me that the Chinese Embassy bombing was intentional, but they disagree on the reasons. They do confirm that the 'wrong map' story was a 'damned lie', though.


Agree....NAH...he's just NOT that smart :rofl:
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:01 pm

Shapley wrote:
OperaTenor wrote:Horse leather!


Always nice to have a debate with you. Your well-thought-out and honest replies keep the debate on a level of decency not seen on most online discussion boards. :roll:


Okay, got it.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:23 pm

Shapley wrote:
OperaTenor wrote:Horse leather!


Always nice to have a debate with you. Your well-thought-out and honest replies keep the debate on a level of decency not seen on most online discussion boards. :roll:

Shapley, that was uncalled for. OT indicated that he thought your two positions had been discussed to death and that the horse was long since deceased. You responded with a personal attack committing the offenses you complain of in the same attack.

Bad form.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:53 pm

OT asked for a response, I provided one, including insight into my thinking on the issue of military ops. He responded by calling it horse leather. I think my response was appropriate.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:55 pm

Selma gets it, too.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:14 pm

If it is horse leather, then would you kindly show me where I've said the same thing before?

Besides, you did accuse me of bloviation. How is that 'personal attack' less than mine?

I, however, will apologize if you think my attack was sinister in nature. I am not a sinister man, but I did think that 'horse leather' was an inappropriate response to my statement. If I'm wrong, then I offer my most humble apologies.

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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:28 pm

No need to apologize.

So, you assume bloviating is a bad thing?
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:36 pm

OperaTenor wrote:No need to apologize.

So, you assume bloviating is a bad thing?


Bloviation is defined as "pompous, self-aggrandizing speech". Pomposity, I've always been taught, is a bad thing.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:41 pm

The Future of Iraq
The decline of violence, the rise of politics.
by Kimberly Kagan
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Haggis@wk » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:28 pm

Shos, you need to change the title of this thread now. Maybe call it "The ‘good war’ begins"

Previously, any attacks on al Qaeda or Taliban targets in Pakistan or Afghanistan would invariably hit wedding parties instead. Just think, 5 days ago we would have hit a “wedding party” or some such. It’s amazing how accurate missiles ordered by a Democrat president are compared to those ordered by a Republican.

Plus, "No comment" is now perfectly okay with WaPo reporters, who then explain it's just normal, smart business on the part of the US: "The United States generally does not comment on or confirm whether it is behind missile attacks."

Also The Post also has reassuring advice for those who worry about "collateral damage" from such attacks - don't. The attack was a "precision strike." Apparently the first such in this long engagement.

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The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby jamiebk » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:29 pm

It has always been "fear" that has kept the peace in Iraq. At one time it was Saddam Hussein who kept the peace as brutal dictator. Now that he has been terminated other powers will emerge. I don't believe that democracy has a real chance in this country where religious differences are so great:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29873349/

BAGHDAD - The streets are calmer now. The fighting between Shiites and Sunnis has largely ceased. But this is not a sign of normalcy in the Iraqi capital. It's fear that keeps the peace.

Only an estimated 16 percent of the mainly Sunni families forced by Shiite militiamen and death squads to flee their homes have dared to return.

It takes two sides to have a fight, and there's really only one side left in Baghdad after violence and fear turned parts of neighborhoods into ghost towns.
####################
In the capital, however, the calm has been achieved in part because the city is now ethnically divided. Shiites predominate. Sunnis have largely fled.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:11 pm

New Alliances In Iraq Cross Sectarian Lines

There is always hope. I seem to recall that MSNBC was one of the first to declare that the war was 'lost'. The goal of the 'surge' was to create a calm from which political solutions to the Iraqi's problems could be dealt with. It seems to have been successful. Now the Iraqis have to resolve their issues, and they seem to be making inroads to doing that. It'll take time, but it may happen sooner than MSNBC thinks.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:54 am

Iraq offers Turkey an olive branch

I suppose there are a number of possible reasons behind it, but I suspect the new Iraqi government is trying to reduce hostilities with its' neighbors in order to allow it to concentrate its' energies on solving internal conflicts. A good idea, if it can be successfully accomplished.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby dai bread » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:35 pm

The Iraqi govt. probably wants help keeping the Kurds quiet.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby jamiebk » Mon May 11, 2009 12:08 pm

Was this a "fragging" or did this guy just snap and lose it?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30678715/

BAGHDAD - A U.S. soldier opened fire on fellow troops Monday, killing five before being taken into custody, the U.S. command said. NBC News reported that the shooting took place at a "stress clinic" on the main base in Baghdad.

Contrary to earlier reports, the soldier did not kill himself but was overpowered and taken into U.S. custody.

The shooting occurred at Camp Liberty, a sprawling U.S. base on the western edge of Baghdad near the city's international airport
#####################
Truly sad for all involved.
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