War in Georgia

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War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:48 am

No, that arsonist Sherman hasn't been sighted near Atlanta.

In the years to come most historians–and perhaps us as well, it’s too soon to tell – will recall that 08-08-08 as the date when Russia began reassembling the former Soviet empire in earnest.

When Russian tanks and troops poured into the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia yesterday, it was not, as the Russian President said, part of a “peacekeeping mission.” It was part of an imperialist mission whose undeclared goal is to reabsorb the whole of Georgia with its critical oil pipeline supplying energy to an increasingly thirsty Europe into mother Russia.

That pipeline is the unacknowledged key to the fighting. An AP story noted, the “U.S.-backed oil pipeline runs through Georgia, allowing the West to reduce its reliance on Middle Eastern oil while bypassing Russia and Iran.” A good thing for the West; but definitively not something Russia (or, for that matter, Iran) wants to encourage.

Reuters reported Russia attacked targets in South Ossetia but also targeted “the major Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline.”

This has happened before. The Times of London reports that the Soviets had initially recognized Georgia’s independence after WWI, but occupied the country in 1921 and brutally put down the revolt that erupted in 1924.

At the time, the president of Georgia made an appeal to the League of Nations. The Times reports that although “sympathetic reference” to Georgia was made in the assembly, “it is realized that the League is incapable of rendering material aid and the moral influence which may be a powerful force with civilized countries is unlikely to make an impression upon Soviet Russia.”

That was in 1924. What sort of impression do you suppose the “moral influence” of the successor institution to the League of Nations, the U.N., is likely to have on the uncivilized successor to the U.S.S.R.?
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby analog » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:00 pm

.............
Last edited by analog on Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:20 pm

By the way, experience matters.

John McCain said that “Tensions and hostilities between Georgians and Ossetians are in no way justification for Russian troops crossing an internationally recognized border.” McCain also called on “Russia to immediately and unconditionally withdraw its forces from the territory of Georgia.” A sober statement about the crisis (”The consequences for Euro-Atlantic stability and security are grave”) occupies a prominent spot on the McCain campaign’s home page.

For his part, Barack Obama called for “talks among all sides and said the United States, the U.N. Security Council and other parties should try to help bring about a peaceful resolution.” Obama looked forward to “an international peacekeeping force” under “an appropriate UN mandate.” As of this writing, there is nothing about the Georgian crisis on the Obmam campaign’s home page.

To recap: John McCain forthrightly condemns Russia’s behavior and demands that Russia withdraw unconditionally.

Obama wants to turn the mess over to the UN.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby dai bread » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:49 pm

Another example of why I think that Russia under Vladimir Putin is looking distinctly old-fashioned.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:03 pm

dai bread wrote:Another example of why I think that Russia under Vladimir Putin is looking distinctly old-fashioned.


Nice observation
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby jamiebk » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:30 pm

dai bread wrote:Another example of why I think that Russia under Vladimir Putin is looking distinctly old-fashioned.


Bush said "when I looked into his eyes I could see his soul". McCain said "When I looked into his eyes I could see K G B....." One point for McCain...
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:01 am

Of course, the fact Russia is being poked in the side with a sharp stick, in the form of trying to get Georgia to join NATO, has nothing to do with it, either.

Not saying I approve of the action, just applying a little Atticus Principle to it.

Russia's Power Play

Of course, like the US has any moral authority anymore.....
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:04 am

OperaTenor wrote:Of course, the fact Russia is being poked in the side with a sharp stick, in the form of trying to get Georgia to join NATO, has nothing to do with it, either.

Not saying I approve of the action, just applying a little Atticus Principle to it.

Russia's Power Play

Of course, like the US has any moral authority anymore.....


I am reluctantly grateful Georgia is not a part of NATO. If it had been we would be facing a lose/lose scenario; betray the alliance's key purpose, or start a shooting war with the world's second largest nuclear power.

I have also reluctantly concluded that we have little or no national interest in the independence of Georgia or any portion of it.

The U.S. involvement in NATO has run its course and we should pull out and terminate any alliances in Europe. Since the fall of the Berlin Wall NATO has become an “entangling alliance” of the sort that George Washington warned us against, and remaining in NATO virtually guarantees our involvement in any bickering territorial disputes in Europe.

Of course if Russia controls the Georgian pipeline routes, it will have more leverage against Europe. But, let's face it, Europe hasn't been showing all that much backbone anyway. If the balance of power in Europe is out of balance, it is due to the new European nation being built there; and that certainly doesn't need anymore US blood and treasure to defend it. We have filled too many graveyards in Europe since 1917
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Shapley » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:34 am

OperaTenor wrote:Of course, like the US has any moral authority anymore.....


And when did we lose this moral authority?

For that matter, when did have this moral authority you think we've lost? The Spanish-American War? The Overthrow of Panama? The Bay of Pigs? French Indochina? Korea? World War II? The first Gulf War? Bosnia? I'm curious about this moral authority we once had....
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:19 pm

When we started torturing people.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:24 pm

OperaTenor wrote:When we started torturing people.



Thanks for clearing that up
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby BigJon@Work » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:00 pm

I can't find the quote in print, but I heard it on the radio yesterday. George Bush saying something like, “We will let the Russians be judged by the court of world public opinions.” I almost fell out of my car door. What a hypocrite.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Shapley » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:10 pm

OperaTenor wrote:When we started torturing people.


And when was that?
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby barfle » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:21 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:The U.S. involvement in NATO has run its course and we should pull out and terminate any alliances in Europe. Since the fall of the Berlin Wall NATO has become an “entangling alliance” of the sort that George Washington warned us against, and remaining in NATO virtually guarantees our involvement in any bickering territorial disputes in Europe.

AMEN!
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:44 pm

Shapley wrote:
OperaTenor wrote:When we started torturing people.


And when was that?


Tell you what. Why don't you go volunteer to be waterboarded, then convince me it isn't torture. Until then, I don't really want to hear it.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby BigJon@Work » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:04 pm

People have done that.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Shapley » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:19 pm

OperaTenor wrote:Tell you what. Why don't you go volunteer to be waterboarded, then convince me it isn't torture. Until then, I don't really want to hear it.


I didn't ask how you defined torture, I asked when we started it. I can assure you, President Bush and Vice President Cheney did not invent the technique.

As I see it, you think we lost our 'moral authority' when you became aware that we were using the techniques you classify as torture. That is a pretty narrow vision. We've used similar techniques in French Indochina, in Korea, In World War II, and probably in the Great War and beyond. Did we have 'moral authority' then? Is the loss of 'moral authority' the result of the torture, or the result of the publication of evidence thereof? If it is the result of the torture, then I daresay we've probably not had 'moral authority' in my lifetime....
Last edited by Shapley on Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby GreatCarouser » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:33 pm

Shapley wrote:
OperaTenor wrote:Tell you what. Why don't you go volunteer to be waterboarded, then convince me it isn't torture. Until then, I don't really want to hear it.


I didn't ask how you defined torture, I asked when we started it. I can assure you, President Bush and Vice President Cheney did not invent the technique.


And that fact some how absolves them from condoning and encouraging its use? I wonder how a defendant in a court would fare in a jury trial using that defense?
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Shapley » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:36 pm

GreatCarouser wrote:And that fact some how absolves them from condoning and encouraging its use? I wonder how a defendant in a court would fare in a jury trial using that defense?


There you go obscuring the issue. I asked when, and why, we lost 'moral authority'. You're trying to say President Bush and Vice President Cheney are guilty of torture, but are ignoring the question asked, as did OT.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby piqaboo » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:46 pm

BigJon@Work wrote:I can't find the quote in print, but I heard it on the radio yesterday. George Bush saying something like, “We will let the Russians be judged by the court of world public opinions.” I almost fell out of my car door. What a hypocrite.

I hesitate to speak for OT, but I think you guys may have found some common ground.
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