War in Georgia

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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Shapley » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:49 pm

Selma in Sandy Eggo wrote:So, Uncle Ronnie was a devious machiavellian schemer; able to delude everyone. Sure.


Hardly. He was quite open about it. As I said, everyone who was paying attention knew what he was up to....

I was in the Navy during most of Ronaldus' term in office, and through the beginning of the Pax Reagana. It was discussed openly in military circles. Why not? The Soviets couldn't stop it. They had to maintain the illusion of power to retain control of the people (similar to the dilemma that Saddam found himself in...), and the threat of the "American Menace" gave them justification for flexing their muscles.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, many leftist writers and commentators were quick to tell us that it was 'inevitable', and to suggest that President Reagan's military buildup delayed that inevitability by creating a diversion that the kept the peebles from focusing on their own economic circumstance. Interestingly, no one on the left seemed to notice this 'inevitable collapse' until after it had occured to pass. But Ronaldus Maximus had predicted it, and had worked towards seeing it come to pass.

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Re: War in Georgia

Postby dai bread » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:23 pm

Most people who had any sort of IQ were Communists when Robert Conquest was 20. Truth has a habit of coming out, though, and only a relative handful were still faithful by 1950, though these included some fairly devastating spies.

The brutal suppression of the Hungarian uprising of 1956 saw the end of our own Communist Party. A few diehards re-formed as the Socialist Unity Party, but Communism died here in 1956.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:20 am

Americans play Monopoly, Russians chess

"The fact is that all Russian politicians are clever. The stupid ones are all dead. By contrast, America in its complacency promotes dullards. A deadly miscommunication arises from this asymmetry. The Russians cannot believe that the Americans are as stupid as they look."


Yeah, we find that hard to believe, too . . . . :roll:

All during the Cold War the mantra then was that we were playing checkers while the Soviets played chess.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Shapley » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:39 am

Haggis@wk wrote:Americans play Monopoly, Russians chess

"The fact is that all Russian politicians are clever. The stupid ones are all dead. By contrast, America in its complacency promotes dullards. A deadly miscommunication arises from this asymmetry. The Russians cannot believe that the Americans are as stupid as they look."


Yeah, we find that hard to believe, too . . . . :roll:

All during the Cold War the mantra then was that we were playing checkers while the Soviets played chess.


I read somewhere that Putin knows that the Congress will not allow President Bush to act decisively, and that the announced withdrawals are part of a ploy to delay any action that may be taken. The article described these 'pullouts' as a situation in which the Russians march in backwards so we'll think they're leaving. The President and the Congress seem to be falling for it.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:56 pm

Obama: Russia, U.S. should not ‘charge into’ other countries

The Illinois senator’s opposition to the Iraq war, which his comment clearly referenced, is well known. But this was the first time the Democratic presidential candidate has made a comparison between the U.S. invasion of Iraq and Russia’s recent military activity in Georgia.

“We’ve got to send a clear message to Russia and unify our allies,” Obama told a crowd of supporters in Virginia. “They can’t charge into other countries. Of course it helps if we are leading by example on that point.”
(emphasis added)

Once again the lack of knowledge or the overwhelming arrogance of the Obama campaign is breathtaking. Georgia and Ossetia have been fighting since Obama was in his 20s.

I don’t think that any candidate, in my lifetime, has been so obviously anti-America.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:28 pm

Image
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:31 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:
Once again the lack of knowledge or the overwhelming arrogance of the Obama campaign is breathtaking. Georgia and Ossetia have been fighting since Obama was in his 20s.

I don’t think that any candidate, in my lifetime, has been so obviously anti-America.


Once again the lack of knowledge or the overwhelming arrogance of the GWB presidency is breathtaking. Shias, Sunnis and Kurds have been fighting since Charlemagne was in his 20s.

I don’t think that any president, in my lifetime, has been so obviously anti-America.

(Hey! This word substitution stuff is kinda cool!)
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:48 pm

OperaTenor wrote:
Haggis@wk wrote:
Once again the lack of knowledge or the overwhelming arrogance of the Obama campaign is breathtaking. Georgia and Ossetia have been fighting since Obama was in his 20s.

I don’t think that any candidate, in my lifetime, has been so obviously anti-America.


Once again the lack of knowledge or the overwhelming arrogance of the GWB presidency is breathtaking. Shias, Sunnis and Kurds have been fighting since Charlemagne was in his 20s.

I don’t think that any president, in my lifetime, has been so obviously anti-America.

(Hey! This word substitution stuff is kinda cool!)


My point was how would our invasion of Iraq be an example good or bad since the problems of Georgia and Ossetia existed before our entry into Iraq?

And since the problems preceded the Iraq invasion, why would he have made a point of it unless he didn't know the problems preceded our entry into Iraq?

Plus, this is classic Left liberal thought process in full view. Only if we are able to attain the blessed state where we never do anything that anyone can think is wrong can we expect the rest of the world to be equally moved to goodness as well driven purely by our "good example". In the meantime, because we have not reached that goal then we have to give a pass to every other country's actions.

His mentor, the Rev. Wright, hates America

His friend, Bill Ayers, hates America

And he hates America
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:04 pm

Image

Haggis, you of all people I would least expect to take things so far out of context. That's almost enough for a 7.5 post penalty!
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:06 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:And since the problems preceded the Iraq invasion, why would he have made a point of it unless he didn't know the problems preceded our entry into Iraq?


Dude, that logic's running laps.

:rofl:
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:32 am

OperaTenor wrote:
Haggis@wk wrote:And since the problems preceded the Iraq invasion, why would he have made a point of it unless he didn't know the problems preceded our entry into Iraq?


Dude, that logic's running laps.

:rofl:


Whatever, we got off topic. Georgia's not our problem and both McCain and Obama are making all the wrong noises about it. It is Europe's problem and even though Europe won't do anything about it, it is still not our problem. If there's ever been a war about oil this is it. Russia wants to control Europe and I think it will. France might take umbrage but without the Germans support nothing is going to happen.

Or maybe it will. I can see an aggressive military action spirally into a greater conflict. The last two World Wars got started that way and it's not out side the realm of possibility here. I don't want to see us get sucked into it. It time to leave NATO.

Russia or (AND?) Islam is going to take over Europe and nothing we can do will change that.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:36 am

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby GreatCarouser » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:36 pm

So since Russia isn't our problem....let's close this thread?
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:51 pm

GreatCarouser wrote:So since Russia isn't our problem....let's close this thread?



How?
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby GreatCarouser » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:17 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:
GreatCarouser wrote:So since Russia isn't our problem....let's close this thread?



How?


Simple...just stop posting in it, voluntarily.

It's hardly a serious suggestion, btw. If America is a 'Superpower' then we are forced to 'pay attention'. It would be foolish to believe that just because 'the bear' is wounded, even mortally, it has no 'bite' which can harm us. Just as foolish as it would be to say that China is not our problem. I'm also willing to concede the point that sometimes the best solution to a situation isn't the most direct one.

Haggis, that KGB file you referenced a few posts back. Wasn't that 'uncovered' by some Conservative hack? Even if it is 'legitimate' why should we believe it isn't full of disinformation? Was Senator McCarthy's list of names also in there? Maybe then we can erect a statue honoring that hero.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:38 pm

GreatCarouser wrote:It's hardly a serious suggestion, btw.


Oh.

GreatCarouser wrote: If America is a 'Superpower' then we are forced to 'pay attention'. It would be foolish to believe that just because 'the bear' is wounded, even mortally, it has no 'bite' which can harm us. Just as foolish as it would be to say that China is not our problem. I'm also willing to concede the point that sometimes the best solution to a situation isn't the most direct one.


And I'm not suggesting that we ignore it, I'm just concerned about rushing Georgia into NATO. As I said earlier, if Georgia's fast tracked into NATO we will be facing a lose/lose scenario; betray the alliance's key purpose, or start a shooting war with the world's second largest nuclear power.


GreatCarouser wrote: Haggis, that KGB file you referenced a few posts back. Wasn't that 'uncovered' by some Conservative hack? Even if it is 'legitimate' why should we believe it isn't full of disinformation? Was Senator McCarthy's list of names also in there? Maybe then we can erect a statue honoring that hero.


The files came to light when Moscow opened the KGB files to western researchers. You can find them if you google a little. Actually, Sen. McCarty's reputation was shined up more than just a little bit by the revelations. Using the information obtained from studies of old Soviet files in Moscow and now the famous Venona Intercepts -- FBI recordings of Soviet embassy communications between 1943-48 -- the record is shows that McCarthy was essentially right. He had many weaknesses, but almost every case he charged has now been proven correct. Whether it was stealing atomic secrets or influencing U.S. foreign policy, communist victories in the 1940s were fed by an incredibly vast spy and influence network.

Not that you'll ever see that acknowledged by any major researchers. They are all still smarting and embarrassed that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White, were all, well, really guilty.

The evidence proves that more than one historian who claimed the Communist threat to the U.S. was overblown were themselves "overblown" or just blowhards. Lenin called people like that "useful idiots ” those who ” wanted to be deceived"
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Shapley » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:53 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:And I'm not suggesting that we ignore it, I'm just concerned about rushing Georgia into NATO. As I said earlier, if Georgia's fast tracked into NATO we will be facing a lose/lose scenario; betray the alliance's key purpose, or start a shooting war with the world's second largest nuclear power.


We betrayed the alliances key purpose when we sent them into Kosovo, and Afghanistan.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:57 pm

Shapley wrote:
Haggis@wk wrote:And I'm not suggesting that we ignore it, I'm just concerned about rushing Georgia into NATO. As I said earlier, if Georgia's fast tracked into NATO we will be facing a lose/lose scenario; betray the alliance's key purpose, or start a shooting war with the world's second largest nuclear power.


We betrayed the alliances key purpose when we sent them into Kosovo, and Afghanistan.



Kosovo I won't argue. Afghanistan was legitimate. Forces from that country attacked the U.S. and NATO is treaty bound to respond to our defense. The embarrassing fact that the U.S. and the Brits (barely) can even operate in a NATO environment is a disgrace. we need to leave it.
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby piqaboo » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:54 am

McCarthy was essentially right. He had many weaknesses, but almost every case he charged has now been proven correct. Whether it was stealing atomic secrets or influencing U.S. foreign policy, communist victories in the 1940s were fed by an incredibly vast spy and influence network.

Including all those hollywood types, with their easy access to national secrets, and their facile understanding of scientific advances?
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Re: War in Georgia

Postby Haggis@wk » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:41 pm

piqaboo wrote:
McCarthy was essentially right. He had many weaknesses, but almost every case he charged has now been proven correct. Whether it was stealing atomic secrets or influencing U.S. foreign policy, communist victories in the 1940s were fed by an incredibly vast spy and influence network.

Including all those hollywood types, with their easy access to national secrets, and their facile understanding of scientific advances?


Probably, the info is online if you are interested in reading it. I've gone through it and while it is compelling and quite damning it will not change anyone's mind until the people being damned no longer control the print, stage, and film media in this country.

I would remind you that unless you ever read the congressional records then everything you have ever read, heard and seen about those days were written, acted and produced by those "victims" you are apparently referring to. Most of the hype you've seen about blacklists is just that. Hype.

As I said earlier

The now unclassified files from Venona and KGB files identified hundreds of American members of the communist Party of the USA as spies actively passing secrets to the Soviet Union. Hundreds of CPUSA members had infiltrated the American government and were passing information to the KGB. They honeycombed the State Department and the Office of Strategic Services. Virtually all of the Cold War's Left's martyrs really were spilling secrets to the Kremlin, including Alger Hiss, the Rosenbergs, and a pair of Roosevelt aides, Harry Dexter White and Laurence Duggan.

To put this into perspective, if recently unclassified documents from England revealed that hundreds of members of the Lincoln administration were spies for England or France, the coverage would be enormous.

Hundreds of America’s elite Left were traitors, spying for the Soviets? Yawn.
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