Population

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

The way to sell more cheese is to make better cheese - last time I was running amock in the cheese counter a big chunk of Irish cheese, and a wedge of Danish blue, made it into the cart with the domestic stuff (Jalapeno muenster. Yum. Made into a grilled cheese sandwich on rosemary bread...) Don't buy much of the sliced cheese "food" with the slices wrapped neatly in plastic.

New Zealand and South American produce don't really compete with US-grown produce; the opposed seasons sort of leave them each exclusive territories. Not much in the way of US-grown peaches in the market, come January. Even the meat products are sort of seasonal; lamb in particular turns to mutton in a few months, about the time spring arrives in the other hemisphere.

[Haggis@wk]

[homer]Ummmmmmmm, New Zealand Butter[/homer]

[dai bread]

Now this is why I like dealing directly with Americans. I had no idea California had a dairy industry- certainly not one of any note.

NZ is the 6th largest dairy producer in the world, according to Wikipedia. I'd thought we were 4th, but never mind. It seems we're big enough to give Wisconsin a fright anyway, but that would necessitate all our production going there, which isn't going to happen under any regime.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

California has a huge agricultural output (it's a huge state, after all!). We grow salad and alfalfa out in the desert, cotton and stone fruit in the central valley, citrus all over the place, grapes and raisins and wine all over the place, rice in the Sacramento river delta - we export rice to Japan, for cryin' out loud! - beef and dairy cows, goats and sheeps and avocados. The list goes on and on.

I know the image of "california" that most people have is of Ellay and SanFrancisco but we have a lot of country out in the country, too. More desert than Arizona. More farmland than Iowa (because we're big and Iowa is little...).

[Shapley]

According to the internet, California passed Wisconsin as the top dairy state in 1993. Wisconsin, apparently, has been ticked about it ever since.

[dai bread]

My image of California is of oranges, movies, and software, with a nod to San Francisco's cable cars and hills. I thought its economy derived from those, but obviously there's a lot more to it than that.

Where do your dairy farmers get their water from? Is anyone complaining about it?

[Haggis@wk]

Where do your dairy farmers get their water from? Is anyone complaining about it?

If it is non-salty water and it is in California EVERYONE complains about it!!!! "Water wars" is not merely a cute euphemism for dispute over water. The "war" part of that is the most descriptive.

The people of California are reminiscent of the citizens of Rome at that empire’s last gasp. They expect bread and circuses in the form of water and energy with no increase in price for either, moral or actual. They have the arrogance of a beggar who’s bigger than you and moves into your house to live. They take water and demand energy from all their neighboring states and are offended when they can’t have it or are expected to pay a premium price when they demand those resources in an "emergency" of their making.

As a result, the government of California is as effective as the government in Zimbabwe, minus the murders. Perhaps that’s an unfair comparison. The state government is similar to all those other failing socialist states in Europe. It is slowing unraveling and a reckoning is due, probably within a decade or so. The state government is in some kind of suicidal gridlock and has been for so long that its citizens think that is normal.

As long as you are not subject to it, It is quite entertaining to watch California state and local governments in action. They pass the most extraordinary bills and resolutions. I left the state in 1992 and have subsequently declined two jobs offers there. My wife of 34 + years, the MRHYN told me she would leave me if I ever went back to California to live and I believe her (it’s generally best to do so in any event)

California is in trouble and will expect the Federal Government to give them money so the can continue to be in trouble more elegantly

[Shapley]

California is a large and diverse State, parts of the State receiving abundant rainfall. People have primarily chosen to settle in the parts that don't.

Back when I was stationed in California, Northern Californians used to claim that they would secede from the State, and make their living selling water to the State of Southern California. I'm not sure where cattle farming is concentrated, but I suspect a lot of it is in the Northern and Central regions, where water is less of an issue than in the populous southern part of the State.

Haggis is correct, however, about Southern California's claim on the water resources of the surrounding area. A detailed map of Southern California will show a large number of lakes designated as "dry lake" in the Southeastern part of the State. Most of these were emptied suppying water to the populous coastal regions. They have rejected as "too expensive" efforts to build and operate large desalination plants, although some coastal Cities in Southern California rely on desalination plants today. Desalination plants are expensive to operate, and are primarily found in the oil-rich regions of the Middle East and Africa, where energy costs are affordable and available sources of fresh water more distant. However, as water demand grows and new sources become more scarce and more expensive to tap, desalination will necessarily become more desirable.

New technologies will also help to bring down the cost of such plants, also.

V/R
Shapley

[dai bread]

My reason for asking the question is that dairying is water-intensive, and I understand California is short of it. I wondered how they coped.

Canterbury, in our South Island, is on the east coast, sheltered from the water-laden westerlies by the Southern Alps, and therefore one of our driest regions. Nevertheless, people are now dairying there, using irrigation to grow their grass. They get the water from a big aquifer in the underlying river shingle, and it is dwindling. There are loud complaints about it. There is an official body charged with allocating the water between its various users, including hydro power stations. The hydro stations get their water from the run of the rivers, naturally, but the same rivers keep the aquifers topped up. I should add that modern hydro systems have a penchant for diverting water away from its river and into waterproof canals. I don't understand why.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Central and Southern California are chronically short of water: there are aquifers but they are not sufficient for the local population. Climate varies from coastal semi-arid to true desert inland. Cattle and sheep ranching can be sustained with native water supplies but actual farming requires imported water: thus the water wars. Colorado river water has been a hot item for decades now, and since it runs between Arizona and California and each of the two states could happily use all the water it contains you can see why.

Northern California could indeed sustain itself selling water to the southern parts of the state. There is a new desalinization plant being planned in Encinitas (not far from Sandy Eggo, just a little bit north) and I expect there'll be more.

Maybe Jamie will report in on the water sources for his part of the state, I don't know what they are. He's about a nine-hour drive north of Sandy Eggo. Like I said, it's a big state. We've got several distinct climates.

[shostakovich]

Maybe California can be the first state to start OPENLY discussing methods of population control. Then, maybe in 10 years, actually start to DO something about it, so that the effect can be felt in about 50 years. Based on BBB members, there seem to be some bright people in CA.

It was about a century ago that the Hetch-Hetchy Valley was flooded to create a reservoir for (I believe) San Francisco, so the water problem there is not new. Looking at Bierstadt paintings of the Hetch-Hetchy Valley, a great tourist attraction was lost.
Shos (my feeble attempt to bring the population thread back to population)

[Shapley]

I wasn't familiar with the Hetch-Hetchy Valley. Here is a bit about it, for those who are interested.

I suppose it is possible that California will be the first State to impose some sort of population control, though it would be ironic if a State founded primarily by Catholic missionaries would be the first to do so.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

... it would be ironic if a State founded primarily by Catholic missionaries ...

Sorry, you've been misinformed. The local Dominicans and Franciscans were firmly subordinate to the Spanish crown reps. Most of the time, they were accompanied by good-sized military escorts - purely for their own protection, of course. The conquistadors and later the landholding hidalgos were the local authorities with the Spanish and later the Mexican governors the central authorities. The, ah, missionaries were limited in scope even though they did have some very nice farms, groves, and light industry centered about their missions - run by their native converts. (BTW, the converts were not allowed to de-convert, or decamp, from the missions.)

I don't see any chance of mandated or legislated population control in our future. Unless, of course, it would be by refusing to accept invaders from the other 49 states and the several countries south of us. That, we might agree to, as long as each of us could get our own personal families exempted from the ban.

Naah. Teddy Kennedy will install wind farms off Hyannisport first.

[Shapley]

Sorry, you've been misinformed. The local Dominicans and Franciscans were firmly subordinate to the Spanish crown reps.

I don't see why being subordinate to the crown changes the fact that they were the primary founders of the State. Even today, most of population centers remain in the areas of the original missions.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

US warships usually have a chaplain on board. Doesn't make 'em a religious community. Fr Serra, the most well-known of the padres, was in the chapel-and-hostel business. The missions were about a day's walk apart, some of them near towns and some not. The "not" ones are now very often anonymous mud lumps somewhere in the countryside.

The missions are a notable part of our early state history - but "founders", not.

[Shapley]

US warships usually have a chaplain on board. Doesn't make 'em a religious community.

True, but then we do not refer to the Captain as "His Catholic Majesty..."

[shostakovich]

I wasn't familiar with the Hetch-Hetchy Valley. Here is a bit about it, for those who are interested.

I suppose it is possible that California will be the first State to impose some sort of population control, though it would be ironic if a State founded primarily by Catholic missionaries would be the first to do so.

Thanks for the pictures, Shap. The reservoir is pretty scenic. I think Bierstadt would have enjoyed painting there now.

A year ago I read there are plans to reclaim the valley by 2013 or so. Is there any truth to that? It doesn't seem reasonable without an alternative source for San Francisco.
Shos

[jamiebk]

I wasn't familiar with the Hetch-Hetchy Valley. Here is a bit about it, for those who are interested.

I suppose it is possible that California will be the first State to impose some sort of population control, though it would be ironic if a State founded primarily by Catholic missionaries would be the first to do so.

Thanks for the pictures, Shap. The reservoir is pretty scenic. I think Bierstadt would have enjoyed painting there now.

A year ago I read there are plans to reclaim the valley by 2013 or so. Is there any truth to that? It doesn't seem reasonable without an alternative source for San Francisco.
Shos

"They" keep talking about emptying the Hetch Hetchy and returning it to its prior spendor. I think that would take a century after being inundated for so long. A noble idea, but no one seems to be able to say where else San Francisco will get its water. As ecologically minded as I am, my vote would be to leave it alone.

PS...the original Hetch Hetchy valley was equally spendid as Yosemite. Many say that losing the battle on flooding Hetch Hetchy was what killed John Muir.

[Haggis@wk]

From The Guardian:

Japan's workers are being urged to switch off their laptops, go home early and use what little energy they have left on procreation, in the country's latest attempt to avert demographic disaster...

A recent survey of married couples under 50 found that more than a third had not had sex in the previous month.

Many couples said they didn't have the energy for sex, while others said they found it boring.

Well, it's no karaoke night. In formerly Catholic Spain, meanwhile, the land of the upside-down family tree (four grandparents, two children, one grandchild), they're still going forth but they're not multiplying:

Abortion Now Number One Cause Of Death In Spain

Under Spain's practically nonexistent restrictions, abortions have more than doubled since the mid 1990s, climbing from 51,006 in 1996 to over 120,000 in 2007. The abortion rate is now approaching one in five pregnancies (18.3%), according to the report...

The IPF report also notes that the proportion of women having their second or later abortion has risen substantially since 2000, from 23% that year to 31% in 2006...

Spain's abortion rate is a major contributor to the country's worsening demographic problems.

They've still got a ways to go to catch up with Russia, where two-thirds of pregnancies are terminated.

A subtle correction, lives are terminated, not “pregnancies,” that’s a popular euphemism of our abortion-friendly Left likes to employ to desensitize the procedure.

[jamiebk]

A subtle correction, lives are terminated, not “pregnancies,” that’s a popular euphemism of our abortion-friendly Left likes to employ to desensitize the procedure.

That depends on when someone believes "life" to begin. I don't think that we need to engage in that never-ending arguement here, since no one is going to change his/her mind anyway.