Population

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Re: Population

Postby Shapley » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:02 pm

jamiebk wrote:That depends on when someone believes "life" to begin. I don't think that we need to engage in that never-ending arguement here, since no one is going to change his/her mind anyway.


Since the title of the article was Abortion Now Number One Cause Of Death In Spain, the author must believe life has begun pre-abortion. Sans life, there is no death.
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Re: Population

Postby jamiebk » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:37 pm

There is a big controversy on the Jewish view of when life begins.
In Jewish tradition, the fetus is not considered viable until it graduates from medical school.
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Re: Population

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:46 am

FWIW, I still think the biggest cause of abortion is ineffective contraception. Maybe they just need a couple of Margaret Sanger types to educate 'em.
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Re: Population

Postby barfle » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:47 pm

I'm of the opinion that abortion is, at best, plan B. But then I don't know anyone who has admitted to having an abortion.

And everyone who knows me well enough to admit such a thing knows that I wouldn't be condemning them for it.

I know a couple of women who had children and the natural father wasn't an imporant part of their lives. But they didn't ask for my advice and I didn't give any.
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Re: Population

Postby jamiebk » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:07 am

My sense is that surgical abortion is a last resort. I know of no one who would be so callus and careless as to use it as a means of birth control. All doctors, no matter their support for abortion frown on this for many reasons. The easiest and least traumatic way to deal with possible unwanted pregnancy after unprotected sex is to utilize hormone therapy known as "emergency contraception" . This is accomplished by simply taking multiple doses of common birth control pills. There is also a "morning after" pill (essentially the same thing) or of course the well known French pill RU-486.
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Re: Population

Postby piqaboo » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:59 pm

Whether or not you would condemn someone for having had an abortion, its not a topic that comes up in conversation easily. I know several ladies who've been there done that, and I can't remember a time its been mentioned except in very intimate conversation, and then rarely.
I am not sure of the reason, but one possibility is the social cost - 'you' might not condemn, but you might mention it to someone else, who mentions it, ... and suddenly all hell breaks loose in their life, with some co-worker arriving to scold and scorn.
Given what the mothers of one child* or three children* get occasionally from random strangers, I can see why someone who's had a controversial procedure would keep it quiet.


* We're selfish, dont you know.
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Re: Population

Postby BigJon@Work » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:04 pm

One of our closest friends from our younger years got one. She was heartbroken for years.
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Re: Population

Postby Shapley » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:29 pm

I've known one person who acknowledged having an abortion, and she was very combative about any discussion of the morality of the issue. I believe she wasn't entirely convinced that she was 'on good moral standing', and didn't wish to have to confront that, but that's just MHO. Mere mention of the word usually brought forth anger and accusations, before one even had an opportunity to state their own position. After a time, I never brought it up. Eventually, I avoided contact with her, though she was dating a good friend of mine.

I did not avoid her because she had had an abortion, I avoided her because she was a bitter and unpleasant person to be around. I have no idea if this was related to the proceedure, though I suspect that it had more to do with the relationship that led to the pregnancy. I believe, had the father not unceremoniously dumped her, she might not have gone through the proceedure. Perhaps she feels that she took out her anger at the father on the son. Again, I'm speculating.

I've known people since who, it is rumoured, have undergone the proceedure. However, since I don't put a lot of stock in gossip, I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it to be just a rumour. I've seen enough to know that many, if not most, rumours concerning people's private lives are erroneous at best, viciously dishonest at worst. Besides, if true, they have to deal with it in their own time and their own manner. If they choose to confide in me, then it becomes my concern, not before.

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Last edited by Shapley on Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Population

Postby jamiebk » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:37 pm

I suspect that having a surgical procedure is far more traumatic...physically and emptionally, than the aformentioned "emergency contraception" or hormone therapy. Perhaps due to the timing. Such "morning after" procedures are a lot kinder on the body and mind should one suspect that an indiscretion could lead to pregnancy.
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Re: Population

Postby analog » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:03 pm

She was heartbroken for years.


Seems to me the kind of choice that might haunt somebody for years.

Probably the closest we guys can come to comprehending would be Conrad's study of guilt,
"Lord Jim" 's jumping ship and living with it .

"Patnas" ought to remain between the parties directly involved and their God.
I wouldn't think less of Madame Butterfly if she'd got one.

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Re: Population

Postby Shapley » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:27 pm

analog wrote:Seems to me the kind of choice that might haunt somebody for years.


As would the choice to put up a child for adoption, or to keep a child you're ill-equipped to raise. The only way to avoid the pain is to avoid the pregnancy in the first place.

Similar, I suppose, to the police officer deciding to shoot or not to shoot a suspect. The only way to avoid that decision is to not respond to the call. Once you're there, the choice has to be made.
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Re: Population

Postby barfle » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:40 pm

Never been in the situation, but I can imagine the stress of an unplanned pregnancy. Well, I've seen the stress of an unplanned pregnancy, and my real reactions were "glad it's none of my business," and "good luck to you." My counsel was neither sought nor offered, and wasn't really pondered.

I'm sure she's happy with her decision to keep and raise her daughter, who is now 16. But I believe she would have had 14 easier years had she not been raising her. She married recently, and to tell the truth, he's as much a kid as the 16-year-old.
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Re: Population

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:58 pm

The CDC reports 2006 for the first time since 1971, America's fertility climbed above replacemenet level (from 2.053.5 in 2005 to 2.100.5 in 2006).

It takes 2.1 births per woman to replace the population. In the European Union in 2006, the total fertility rate was 1.47 children per woman.

The married women's birth rate ticked up a notch, rising from 87.3 births per 1000 married woman to 88 births per 1000 married woman.

That's about it for the good news. Unwed births are up, up, up.

The total number of babies born to unwed mothers in 2006 was 1,642,000, "the highest number ever recorded in the U.S.," according to the CDC. 115,000 more babies were born out of wedlock in 2006 than in 2005. The unmarried birth rate (which is the likelihood that any given single woman gives birth) jumped 7 percent in that one single year. The proportion of births outside of marriage jumped from a record 36.9 percent to a record 38.5 percent. As recently as 1990, only 37 percent of births to women in their early twenties (20 to 24) were nonmarital: now it's 58 percent. Even 31 percent of births to women in their late twenties (25-29) are out of wedlock.

Married women are still more likely to have babies than single women — but the relationship between marriage and children is rapidly dwindling.

Utah is the most distinctive state. It has by far the lowest proportion of births out of wedlock (19 percent), far outpacing the next-best state, New Hampshire (29 percent). This is particularly notable when combined with the fact that Utah also has the highest total fertility rate (2.6 births per woman). Something different is happening in Utah.

Unlike Shos, I consider humans to be the most important un-renewable resource the planet has.

Recent declines in sustainable birth rates through all of Easter and Western Europe and the one child program in China, which, as an unintended consequence encourages a society that values male children above female to select the sex of that one child, is causing dramatic populations swings throughout much of the area.

As a consequence, Islamic populations are rapidly become the dominate socio/religious/political power in region that have never been at risk in the past.

That’s bad news for any society that values freedom and non-secularism; say, like us.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: Population

Postby barfle » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:29 pm

Haggis wrote:That’s bad news for any society that values freedom and non-secularism; say, like us.

I hope you meant "secularism." Because I certainly don't value theocracy (as you may have guessed).
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Re: Population

Postby dai bread » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:38 pm

"...humans to be the most important un-renewable resource the planet has."

A bit apocalyptic there, Haggis?

As it happens, I thought the U.S. was one of the few developed countries where the birth-rate was already above replacement. Seems I was wrong.
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Re: Population

Postby Haggis@wk » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:21 pm

barfle wrote:
Haggis wrote:That’s bad news for any society that values freedom and non-secularism; say, like us.

I hope you meant "secularism." Because I certainly don't value theocracy (as you may have guessed).


Oops....... :oops:
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: Population

Postby piqaboo » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:00 pm

Typo kinda day for haggis. Humans are pretty renewable.

I been telling ya. I see lots of large families around.
Unwed birthrate - is that necessarily bad?
Depends on circumstances, no?

I have a friend, I may have mentioned her before, who's had three kids with three different fathers.
Gasp! Shock! Has she no discipline?
Well... the oldest is selfsupporting in NYC, the middle graduated summa cum laude from Cornell and is going on for a PhD, paid by his employer, and the youngest is doing well in school. Circumstances....

(Granted, I would not want to be an unwed mother. MUCH too hard, with no one to share the job, especially in that first year).
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Re: Population

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:35 pm

piqaboo wrote:Typo kinda day for haggis. Humans are pretty renewable.


Let me rephrase. Yes, human are renewable, it's just that the populations I've been speaking of; Western and Eastern Europe, etc. are not renewing. Germany's birth rate is so low that every generation there will be 1/2 fewer Germans than the one before. All of the EU is now relying on immigration to maintain their population. We've seen how well that's been working out in France and Belgium!
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: Population

Postby Haggis@wk » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:22 pm

This is a story on some of the grislier consequences on China’s demographically disastrous one-child laws:

A court in central China has sentenced a woman to death for hiring someone to strangle her 9-year-old son so she could have another child with her new husband without violating population laws, a court official and reports said Friday.

Li initially received a death sentence suspended for two years because she had suffered from depression after having two abortions due to the rules against her bearing another child, the reports said. Such sentences are often commuted to life in prison.

But the higher court found that her depression was not directly related to her crime.


So, let's see. This woman is to be put to death, because she paid someone to strangle her nine-year-old son, by a state that forced her to abort her other pregnancies. It's hard to be shocked at the heartlessness and depravity of someone forced to live in a society in which heartlessness and moral depravity have the force of law.
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Re: Population

Postby piqaboo » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:20 pm

I'm surprised they couldnt get a waiver, if her new husband had no children.
China is not nice to its citizens, and less nice to its minorities.
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