"Goverment Motors"

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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:36 am

Wiki:

Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology[1][2][3][4] and a corporatist economic ideology.[5] Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[6] Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in combat against the weak.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.[9] In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism.[10][11] This was to be achieved by a form of government control over business and labour (called "the corporate state" by Mussolini).[12][13] No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition.[14]

We went around and around about fascism here on this very board a few years ago, and I seem to recall having my nose rubbed in the notion that fascism was an economic philosophy primarily, and I'd swear it was by you, Shap.

And by what Wiki has to say about it, it would seem the subject is still open for debate.
Last edited by OperaTenor on Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:38 am

OperaTenor wrote: GWB tried to do it by his ham-handed SS privatization scheme, and now Obama's succeeding where GWB failed.


Actually, the intent of SS privatisation was to remove the government from the loop. Monies that are currently payed by the employer and the employee to the government's coffers would be paid directly into a private account. The intent was to reduce government involvment in individual retirment plans, not to increase government control. President Bush was no socialist, although he did lay the groundwork for Mr. Obama's socialist agenda with his ill-concieved bailout.

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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:40 am

Shapley wrote:
OperaTenor wrote: GWB tried to do it by his ham-handed SS privatization scheme, and now Obama's succeeding where GWB failed.


Actually, the intent of SS privatisation was to remove the government from the loop. Monies that are currently payed by the employer and the employee to the government's coffers would be paid directly into a private account. The intent was to reduce government involvment in individual retirment plans, not to increase government control. President Bush was no socialist, although he did lay the groundwork for Mr. Obama's socialist agenda with his ill-concieved bailout.

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Why don't you go and read the models and get back to me? As it is, you really don't know what you're talking about - you're relying on hearsay.
Last edited by OperaTenor on Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:40 am

I am inclined to accept Merriam-Webster as being more of an authority than Wikipedia. Merrian-Webster tends toward the actual definition of a word, whereas Wikipedia is subject to the interpretation-du-juor.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:41 am

Shapley wrote:I am inclined to accept Merriam-Webster as being more of an authority than Wikipedia. Merrian-Webster tends toward the actual definition of a word, whereas Wikipedia is subject to the interpretation-du-juor.


And of course, it doesn't hurt that it conforms to the position you wish to take.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:44 am

I've read them. We had a lengthy discussion on it back when it was on the table. Discussion of it today is meaningless, since the Democrats effective killed the plan. If the plan did as you suggest, why did the Democrats oppose it so vehemently, it it truly fulfilled the objective you claim that are now following?
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:46 am

OperaTenor wrote:And of course, it doesn't hurt that it conforms to the position you wish to take.


I wouldn't quote them if it didn't. However, I wouldn't take that position if I couldn't support it, either. I can assure you the folks at Merriam-Webster did not contact me before composing the defintion...
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:51 am

Re SS privatization: Really? this is the first I've heard of it. Last time this was discussed you said you'd read other people's summaries of them.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

I will acknowledge that I did not read the plan as submitted by the Congress or the Senate, which would be the plans that would actually get into law, if they made it to a vote. I did read the executive summary of the President's proposal, as well as the Heritage Foundations analysis of it, among others. The Congress' proposal was not the President's plan exactly. Nor do I believe the Senate's version to be. The president offered his outline only, as I recall.

However, you are avoiding answering my question. Why did the Democrats kill it?
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:04 am

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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:07 am

Shapley wrote:I will acknowledge that I did not read the plan as submitted by the Congress or the Senate, which would be the plans that would actually get into law, if they made it to a vote. I did read the executive summary of the President's proposal, as well as the Heritage Foundations analysis of it, among others. The Congress' proposal was not the President's plan exactly. Nor do I believe the Senate's version to be. The president offered his outline only, as I recall.

However, you are avoiding answering my question. Why did the Democrats kill it?


Um, the scheme was never submitted by Congress or the Senate; it was never voted on. Check your memory banks.

Your rough, tough, independent thinker, GWB, killed it after polls showed increasing negative public opinion as time - and his silly roadshow to promote it - wore on.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:16 am

OperaTenor wrote:Um, the scheme was never submitted by Congress or the Senate; it was never voted on. Check your memory banks.


H.R. 3304 Growing Real Ownership for Workers Act of 2005 (Introduced in House)

S. 1302 Stop the Raid on Social Security Act of 2005 (Introduced in Senate)

Check yours.

Privatization Plan: Fact and Fiction (A union website designed to generate opposition to the plan)
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:22 am

Shapley wrote:
OperaTenor wrote:Um, the scheme was never submitted by Congress or the Senate; it was never voted on. Check your memory banks.


H.R. 3304 Growing Real Ownership for Workers Act of 2005 (Introduced in House)

S. 1302 Stop the Raid on Social Security Act of 2005 (Introduced in Senate)

Check yours.

Privatization Plan: Fact and Fiction (A union website designed to generate opposition to the plan)


Those are not privatization models, are they? Explain to me how those stopped the process, or are you saying GWB caved to their pressure?
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:37 am

Yes, those are privatization models. They took the excess funds (social security surplus) and transferred them to private accounts. This differed from the Presidents' outline, which was to take a fixed percentage of social security funds and have them invested in private retirement accounts. The original outline was to have those private accounts paid directly to the private plans, not paid from the 'trust fund'. The Democrats argument was that the plan would kill social security and replace it with a system of private pensions (which was the long-term goal, true enough).

Your argument seems to be the opposite, that the privatization plan did not privatize Social Security, but rather gave the government control of private pension management. What basis do you have for this claim?
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:38 am

Hmm, you didn't bring them up in this thread, either. What gives?
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:40 am

Shapley wrote:Yes, those are privatization models. They took the excess funds (social security surplus) and transferred them to private accounts. This differed from the Presidents' outline, which was to take a fixed percentage of social security funds and have them invested in private retirement accounts. The original outline was to have those private accounts paid directly to the private plans, not paid from the 'trust fund'. The Democrats argument was that the plan would kill social security and replace it with a system of private pensions (which was the long-term goal, true enough).

Your argument seems to be the opposite, that the privatization plan did not privatize Social Security, but rather gave the government control of private pension management. What basis do you have for this claim?


You are completely, totally wrong about what GWB proposed. Go read it, educate yourself, and get back to me.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:45 am

OperaTenor wrote:We went around and around about fascism here on this very board a few years ago, and I seem to recall having my nose rubbed in the notion that fascism was an economic philosophy primarily, and I'd swear it was by you, Shap.


Actually, I believe the opposite is true: fascism is a political rather than economic policy. However, we are discussing the actions of government in imposing economic policy, that makes it a political issue, not an economic one. If it is controlled by government, it is politics. I don't believe I 'rubbed your nose in the notion', but it is possible I am mistaken. I'm usually the one who catches flak for mixing the two.

But I don't see how one can discuss the action of government, whether in economics or art, as anything other than political.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:51 am

You didn't read the link, did you?
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:58 am

Strengthening Social Security For The 21st Century

I haven't had time to re-read it. I ask again, what documents form the basis for your understanding of the plan goals?
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:12 pm

OperaTenor wrote:You didn't read the link, did you?


There wasn't one.
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