The Unnecessary War

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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Mon May 11, 2009 12:16 pm

I've been following that all morning, but few details have emerged.

You may recall a few years ago that a U.S. Soldier that had converted to Islam was convicted of a grenade attack on fellow soldiers. That was my first thought in this incident, but so far there is no report on the identity or religious affiliation (if any) of the soldier.

We'll have to wait and see what details finally emerge.

As you said, a truly sad situation. The soldiers have enough to worry about there as it is, without having to fear attacks from their brothers-in-arms.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:33 pm

International Oil Companies Poise For Return To Iraq

Not bad considering that the war was 'lost', the nation had 'slid into civil war, and we mired down in a 'quagmire'...
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby jamiebk » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:41 am

Yes...it is remarkable and only 6 years and one month after "Mission Accomplished" :roll:
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby dai bread » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:07 pm

If I was an international oil company "poised for return" to Iraq, I'd keep my running shoes on. It's not over yet.
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:50 am

jamiebk wrote:Yes...it is remarkable and only 6 years and one month after "Mission Accomplished" :roll:


And barely two years after Senator Reid decaled that the 'war is lost'. I would say Mr. Bush's assessment was more accurate than Mr. Reid's, or Mr. Obama's.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby jamiebk » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:58 am

Shapley wrote:
jamiebk wrote:Yes...it is remarkable and only 6 years and one month after "Mission Accomplished" :roll:


And barely two years after Senator Reid decaled that the 'war is lost'. I would say Mr. Bush's assessment was more accurate than Mr. Reid's, or Mr. Obama's.


Fighting a war that was unnecessary in the first place is no victory. We lost far more than we gained...
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:43 am

You're convinced it was unnecessary, I'm not. I think it could have been settled sooner, but such is war. Also, I'm saying so from the comfort of my armchair, not while standing on hot battlefield.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby jamiebk » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:07 am

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?????

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A car bomb has killed at least 24 people near a market in the northern city of Kirkuk, police said Tuesday, as Iraqi forces assumed control for security in urban areas.

Tuesday's bombing comes as Iraqis celebrate what the government is calling National Sovereignty Day to mark the withdrawal of U.S. combat troops from Iraqi cities.

Police Brig. Gen. Sarhat Qadir said the explosives-laden car was parked near a crowded market in the city. He said at least 40 people were wounded in the attack.

The U.S. military also said four U.S. soldiers were killed in combat in Baghdad on Monday. It said they died as a "result of combat related injuries."

The two attacks are deadly reminders of the dangers still facing Iraq as Iraqi forces assume more responsibility for their own security.

The withdrawal that was completed on Monday is part of a U.S.-Iraqi security pact and marks the first major step toward withdrawing all American forces from the country by Dec. 31, 2011. President Barack Obama has said all combat troops will be gone by the end of August 2010.

President Jalal Talabani said the day could not have happened without the help of the United States, which invaded Iraq in 2003 and ousted Saddam Hussein — who was later convicted by an Iraqi court and executed in Dec. 2006.

'Reconciliation'
"While we celebrate this day, we express our thanks and gratitude to our friends in the coalition forces who faced risks and responsibilities and sustained casualties and damage while helping Iraq to get rid from the ugliest dictatorship and during the joint effort to impose security and stability," Talabani said.

Describing June 30 as a "glorious page" in Iraq's history he warned that "security will not be achieved completely without proper political environment and without a real national unity and reconciliation."

Iraq marked the day with an overnight display of fireworks, while thousands attended a party in a park where singers performed patriotic songs.

The midnight handover to Iraqi forces filled many citizens with pride but also trepidation that government forces are not ready and that violence will rise. Shiites fear more bombings by Sunni militants; Sunnis fear that the Shiite-dominated Iraqi security forces will give them little protection.

If the Iraqis can hold down violence in the coming months, it will show the country is finally on the road to stability. If they fail, it will pose a challenge to Obama's pledge to end an unpopular war that has claimed the lives of more than 4,300 U.S. troops and tens of thousands of Iraqis.

Despite Tuesday's formal pullback, some U.S. troops will remain in the cities to train and advise Iraqi forces. U.S. troops will return to the cities only if asked. The U.S. military will continue combat operations in rural areas and near the border, but only with the Iraqi government's permission.

The U.S. has not said how many troops will be in the cities in advisory roles, but the vast majority of the more than 130,000 U.S. forces remaining in the country will be in large bases scattered outside cities.

There have been some worries that the 650,000-member Iraqi military is not ready to maintain stability and deal with a stubborn insurgency.

Privately, many U.S. officers worry the Iraqis will be overwhelmed if violence surges, having relied for years on the Americans for nearly everything.

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31652788/ns ... t_in_iraq/
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:54 pm

jamiebk wrote:MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?????


I should point out that, for the USS Abraham Lincoln and for the US Navy, that speech pretty much meant that the mission was accomplished. The Lincoln was on its way home from a ten-month deployment when President Bush landed onboard to give the speech announcing the end of the combat phase of the operation. That meant that the role of US forces there was changing and the role of the US Navy changed from one of active participation in combat air strikes to the more routine role of patrolling the seas in the region. "Shock and Awe" was behind us, and the role changed to "Stalk 'em all" as we sought to round up insurgents. The banner "Mission Accomplished" was fitting, but has been mischaracterized by the media and by Bush haters ever since.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby barfle » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:43 am

Shapley wrote:The banner "Mission Accomplished" was fitting, but has been mischaracterized by the media and by Bush haters ever since.

You say that like you think it's a bad thing.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:48 am

It was a bad thing. As a result of the tarring of President Bush, we now have Mr. Obama running the country, and Nancy Pelosi running the Congress. Very bad...
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby barfle » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:13 pm

Bush tarred himself, so he's responsible for the likes of Obama and Pelosi.

Had he not been someone who made his mind up without ignoring the facts at hand, we would be in far better shape.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:18 pm

barfle wrote:Had he not been someone who made his mind up without ignoring the facts at hand, we would be in far better shape.


You prefer a president that ignores the facts at hand? Well, you've got one now. ;)
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby barfle » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:36 pm

I think I rewrote that sentence six times.

Bush ignored the information from Hans Blix.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:55 pm

Transcript of Blix' Remarks in January 2003

In his remarks, he disuputes many claims by Iraq regarding WMD. Mr. Blix was still uncertain as to whether or not such weapons existed, and requested more time to find out. President Bush had already set a timetable for compliance, which had not been met, a fact pointed out by Mr. Blix.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:34 pm

This is rich.

And I'm getting dizzy again.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:56 pm

OperaTenor wrote:And I'm getting dizzy again.


I've cited that before, long ago. In fact, Barfle and I have had this same discussion. Hans Blix was only readmitted to Iraq because President Bush was threatening war. The inspectors met with resistance and opposition upon first entering, but found Saddam to be more co-operative as we moved closer to attack. President Bush was not silent about his reasons, and he outlined them all on the floor of U.N., which speech I have also linked here before.

Ultimately, it came down to the question of whether or not President Bush would stick to his deadline or cave in to the incremental gestures Saddam was offering. Saddam admitted, after his arrest, that he tried to present the image that he had, or might have had, weapons of mass destruction, because he feared Iran more than he feared the United States. The US response had typically been to respond with limited airstrikes and more demand for 'openness', and he knew he could ride those out. I'm not telling you anything new here.

Perhaps you should see a doctor about these dizzy spells you keep having...
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby barfle » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:22 pm

Shapley wrote:Mr. Blix was still uncertain as to whether or not such weapons existed, and requested more time to find out.

If he had found weapons, he would have been certain. So all he asked for was time to do his job, which Bush denied him.
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Shapley » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:46 pm

barfle wrote:If he had found weapons, he would have been certain. So all he asked for was time to do his job, which Bush denied him.


I've said all I can say, and posted the link. I'll add no more, as I don't want to contribute to any more of OT's dizzy spells. Piq would have my head if my posts led to the need for her husband to seek any of that non-universal health care... ;)
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Re: The Unnecessary War

Postby Haggis@wk » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:28 pm

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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