What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:24 pm

Now we're back to seeing how you'd do without roads, police, infrastructure, and all that.

I didn't take you to be an anarchist.

Oh, and what you believe the Constitution mandates and what I believe it mandates are obviously diametrically opposed when it comes to the average American. We'll never settle that one.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:39 pm

OperaTenor wrote:Now we're back to seeing how you'd do without roads, police, infrastructure, and all that.

I didn't take you to be an anarchist.

Oh, and what you believe the Constitution mandates and what I believe it mandates are obviously diametrically opposed when it comes to the average American. We'll never settle that one.


The federal government is not the sole provider of roads and infrastructure, and it does not provide police. I'm a States' rights supporter. You seem to willfully ignore the fact that there are municipal, county, and state governments that are empowered to provide a large range of services.

I also note your use of the term 'mandates' when talking about the Constitution. That is telling, and provides a very clear example of why we cannot agree. I believe the Constitution 'empowers' or 'authorizes', as opposed to 'mandates'. You seem quite content with accepting 'mandates', I believe in representative government.
Last edited by Shapley on Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:53 pm

jamiebk wrote:Actually, I am quite to the middle....



Eh, me too. I just do the right wing stuff because of a flaw in my character, its sort of perverse fun. I'd pick the left but Shapley is too tiresome and dull to spar with. Jaime, we probably see eye to eye on many issues.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:11 pm

Giant Communist Robot wrote:I'd pick the left but Shapley is too tiresome and dull to spar with.


It's an art...
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:06 pm

Giant Communist Robot wrote: I'd pick the left but Shapley is too tiresome and dull to spar with.


Perhaps, it is time
to resume posting in rhyme
since dull has become my sparring
need I post something jarring? ;)
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:25 pm

Shapley wrote:Perhaps, it is time
to resume posting in rhyme

Ah, no. No, it isn't.
Nein. Nyet. No.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Shapley wrote:since dull has become my sparring
need I post something jarring? ;)

Or, you could try "pleasant" "uplifting" "inspiring" or "amusing"

That'd be a change.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:30 pm

Shapley wrote:
Giant Communist Robot wrote: I'd pick the left but Shapley is too tiresome and dull to spar with.


Perhaps, it is time
to resume posting in rhyme
since dull has become my sparring
need I post something jarring? ;)


I thought of haikus or double dactyls
but they take too long to compose
since I can't rhyme exact-tul
I better just stick to prose
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:44 pm

Selma in Sandy Eggo wrote:Or, you could try "pleasant" "uplifting" "inspiring" or "amusing"


I've tried all of those. Only the 'jarring' posts seem to get responses. That, and the rhymes.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:34 am

In memoir, Kennedy calls his Chappaquiddick action 'inexcusable'

I wonder why he waited until he was dead to say so.

"Atonement is a process that never ends," Kennedy writes, according to The Times.


...or never begins, in some cases.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:42 am

Shapley wrote:In memoir, Kennedy calls his Chappaquiddick action 'inexcusable'

I wonder why he waited until he was dead to say so.

"Atonement is a process that never ends," Kennedy writes, according to The Times.


...or never begins, in some cases.


I can't believe he didn't suffer privately for what happened.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:52 pm

Giant Communist Robot wrote:I can't believe he didn't suffer privately for what happened.


I'm sure he did. However, according to Merriam-Webster, Atonement is defined as:
reparation for an offense or injury


Whatever private suffering he may have endured, it did not begin to make atonement, as I understand the definition.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:12 pm

If there had been any kind of legal case he would have been prosecuted. Morally there can't be satisfactory "reparation" for the loss of life. Probably he was drinking, and probably he was intending to fool around, but how different is that from the behavior of others in Congress? An accident occurred, and its just that. Some really poor judgment. We can't know what he said or did privately, or the nature of his prayers--but I can guess. In the end you can be sure that, as a Catholic, Kennedy experienced what all Catholics know---we are flawed, and we commit sin. That domain is between him and God.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:42 pm

She did not drown, she suffocated slowly over the ten hours it took for him to notify them there was an accident. He went home, showered, slept, and then placed a phone call - to his lawyer. After all that, he notified the authorities.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:06 am

Shapley wrote:She did not drown, she suffocated slowly over the ten hours it took for him to notify them there was an accident. He went home, showered, slept, and then placed a phone call - to his lawyer. After all that, he notified the authorities.

....and what?
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:31 am

Giant Communist Robot wrote: ....and what?


...and he pleaded guilty to 'leaving the scene of an accident' for which he received a two month suspended sentence. A special investigation, held in secret at the request of the Kennedy family, determined that parts of Mr. Kennedy's story were 'not true', but a Grand Jury refused to indict him.

Under current law in many states, if a person dies as a direct or indirect result of criminal activity on one's part, that party is held liable for the death. I will assume such a law was not on the books in Massachusetts in 1969, and that he could therefore not have been charged with manslaughter as a result of his guilty plea. However, my own opinion is that he was directly culpable for her death, and that he was able to avoid paying the penalty for that culpability by virtue of family connections.

Lest anyone think I'm being unfair, I would point to the criticism of President Bush over his supposed use of family connections to keep out of Vietnam. I find it interesting that some people were more concerned over the use of family connections to avoid killing people than in using them to avoid punishment for doing so. But that's just my opinion.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby jamiebk » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:43 am

I have always found it impossible to forget the incident and have always felt that there was foul play at work on many sides of this equation. However, yapping about it at this point really serves no purpose. The man is dead and he takes his actions and the truth of what happened to his grave to settle with himself and his maker.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:11 pm

jamiebk wrote:The man is dead and he takes his actions and the truth of what happened to his grave to settle with himself and his maker.


I would agree, except for the current efforts by the Democrats and the press to deify him. Democrats are invoking his name in calling for passage of legislation. The press coverage of his life and death has been nothing short of shameless. I had expected, after seeing CBS coverage, that he would rise again in three days. With the Democrats and the Press playing role of the Advocatus Dei, it is left to we lesser mortals to play the role of the Promotor Fidei, or Devil's Advocate.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:09 pm

I find it interesting that some people were more concerned over the use of family connections to avoid killing people than in using them to avoid punishment for doing so. But that's just my opinion.


Your opinion is family connections were used to avoid punishment, but there is no proof. Public documents don't support this opinion. What does? Some kind of political agenda?

Using the word "killing" adds an emotional charge. Are you saying this was not an accident? If it was an accident, how about calling it an "accidental death?" That would certainly deflate your opinion. And in your quote you compare Bush to Kennedy--I think GB's motive was more likely to avoid being killed (in a war) than to avoid killing people (in a war.) We can see from his record he didn't do much to avoid killing people in Iraq (a war), and in fact his policy of preemptive war lead to many deaths.
This war, though, Bush must have had more to do with, as I saw pictures of him wearing a flight suit. Obviously he flew combat missions over Iraq. Don't ever think of that guy as a coward, just remember who it was shooting down MIG's and firing missiles at tanks.
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Re: What?! No Kennedy memorial thread?

Postby Shapley » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:39 pm

It's my own opinion, and I said so in my post. I was twelve years old at the time, and only have recollection that my teachers spoke of the incident. My knowledge since has probably come largely from biased sources, but the opinion formed is my own, based on the information I have learned since. There is no reason to believe that the Bush family wielded any more influence than the Kennedys on local politics, yet people were anxious to believe in a 'fake but accurate' document proclaiming that the Bush family exerted influence to keep George Walker out of combat duty. It is rather commonly accepted here in the Midwest among Democrats and Republican alike, at least among those I know, that the Kennedy family probably 'pulled strings' to limit Mr. Kennedy's liabilty, and political fallout, from the accident. We know that such things happen, and we know from Mr. Barney Frank's censure for fixing traffic tickets that they are not unknown among Massachusetts politicians.

I believe it was the wreck was an accident, don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about first-degree murder or any such conspiracy theories. However, had the accident been reported even an hour after Mr. Kennedy's escape from the vehicle, Miss Kopechne might well have survived. It is for this reason that I am hesitant to refer to her death as 'accidental' and move it towards 'manslaughter'. I have not used the term 'murder', however, as I do not view it as such.

But, as I said, this is my opinion. I merely expressed it here as a counter to the current canonization being offered by those who worship at the Kennedy altar.
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