Does anyone read? Part II

[dai bread]

I've finally finished "Lord Jim". I think that , if it was read aloud around a fireside, a chapter a night, which was probably the idea when it was written, it would have been interesting to follow. Read silently, several chapters at once, It's hard going. It's a very leisurely book. Most of the story is told second-hand by the character Marlow, who is often used to repeat the words of others, so that the story of Jim becomes 3rd-hand. I can't see why Conrad would want to make Jim such a shadowy character in this way, unless it's because Jim's moral quandary, caused by his cowardice and racism, is a bit hard to swallow, at least in this day and age.

I'm tempted to see if Google Books has it. Then I could download it, take a delete key to it, and see what I came up with. Conrad never uses one adjective where 3 will do, and that applies to adjectival clauses too, and even whole paragraphs. It would have been good around a fireside.

I'm not terribly happy that "the girl" has no name. I think that was misogynist even in Conrad's time.

[Shapley]

It's been some time since I read Conrad. Most recently, I read The [censored] of the Narcissus. It took three tries to get through it. I think I first started, and then abandoned, it in the '80s, when I bought the book. I took it with me on vacation a few years later, but generally found sitting by the pool having a beer to be preferable to reading it. I finally finished it about four years ago. It's actually a good story, I just found his writing tiresome.

[piqaboo]

I too just finished Lord Jim.
And now the library book sale has it. :dusts off hands:

I've tried several times over the years, but the intense layering of adjectives etc wore me down,
especially if there were too many I was unfamiliar with.
At age 10, when I rec'd the book as a gift, I knew nothing of boats.
I couldnt get thru that section at all. It was gibberish.
It didnt help that I had no patience w the character Jim.

Now, the words are familar, so it was just plow thru to get the story.
Makes me want to read the Cliff notes.

Reading Saberhagen's Swords books
Finished Book of the Swords, 1, 2 & 3,
then book 6 of the Lost Swords. Am midway thru book 7.
Would read 1-5 if I ever find them, but wont seek them out.

Am reading Peter Pan. The original is not quite as cheery as Disney's version.

[Giant Communist Robot]

It's actually a good story, I just found his writing tiresome.

Modern readers seldom have the patience of those in the past.

I recently read the first volume of Charles Brookes' Ten years in Sarawak and it seemed clear he was a person of above average intelligence and capable of powerful description. With him writing about his personal experiences (ca. 1850) in the founding of Sarawak, it looked like a winner. But the tiresome old style wore me down, and I've yet to read the second volume.

For many reasons, modern readers prefer a faster pace.

[Shapley]

For many reasons, modern readers prefer a faster pace.

Reading mirrors life.

Then again, maybe we just have more words now. Conrad may have used three adjectives where one would do because the one that would do it did not exist, or at least was unknown to him. The original Webster's Dictionary of 1828 contained 70,000 entries. The 1864 Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language contained 114,000 entries. The 1890 Webster’s International Dictionary of the English Language contained 175,000. The 1909 Webster's New International Dictionary contained over 400,000 entries. The 1961 Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged contained over 450,000 entries. (A 1934 New International Dictionary contained over 600,000 entries, but it included many proper names and 'combination words'). I would expect that most writers are limited to some extent by their vocabularly, but modern writers have ready access to dictionaries, thesauri, and the internet.

Some writers love to rub the readers' noses in their expansive knowledge of vocabulary, requiring them to keep their reference books handy just to read their work. Others use 'the language of the everyman' in order keep their writings enjoyable or because they lack the vocabulary or resources to do otherwise. Most probably fall somewhere in between.

[dai bread]

Another thing that used to annoy me intensely about early- to mid-twentieth- century writers was the way they used foreign words when writing about foreign places. The British, whose empire it was at the time, were particularly bad. They'd write italics, or, a form of script. In other words, the foreign word would be in italics, followed by a translation, which may or may not have been accurate. Some of the Maori ones were distinctly astray.

This annoyed me because, if it was Maori, I had a fair idea what it meant anyway, and if it wasn't, all the writer was doing was being clever at his readers' expense.

It's a style I haven't seen for years, thankfully.

[Giant Communist Robot]

Conrad may have used three adjectives where one would do because the one that would do it did not exist, or at least was unknown to him.

I think he was under the influence of the 19th century romantics

Some writers love to rub the readers' noses in their expansive knowledge of vocabulary, requiring them to keep their reference books handy just to read their work. Others use 'the language of the everyman' in order keep their writings enjoyable or because they lack the vocabulary or resources to do otherwise. Most probably fall somewhere in between.

I could be wrong about this, but I think Hemmingway's terse style was intended to let the reader evoke from their own experience. Wine was good, or red, or cold, but you could just imagine the taste. This kind of trick of economy is good if you can pull it off.

Did you see my post about the flash fiction stories?

[Shapley]

Did you see my post about the flash fiction stories?

Yes, I did. The book your wife left lyng around. Sounds like the kind of assignment a good writing instructor might give to his class: "Write a short story, 500 words or less, with the following criteria..."

I had a hard time with letters to the editor. Our local paper limits them to 250 words or less. As you know from reading my posts, brevity is not my long suit. I start out writing my ideas in normal fashion, and then submitting it. Their computer function rejects it automatically, and provides the word count. I start editing it down from there, and resubmitting. Sometimes it takes several tries to get it down to 250 words, and I often feel that I've lost the point I was trying to make. There have been times I've given up because I couldn't make my point in 250 words or less.

When that happens, I post it on the B.com BB.

V/R
Shapley

[Shapley]

Another thing that used to annoy me intensely about early- to mid-twentieth- century writers was the way they used foreign words when writing about foreign places.

There is a saying that, if you have to explain the joke, the joke isn't funny. Perhaps some variation of that should apply to writing. If you're going to use a foreign word, just use it. If the reader doesn't get it, it's his responsibility to make him look it up. You can through in a glossary in the back if you use a lot of such phrases. This counts as 'rubbing their noses in your vocabulary', as I said earlier, but it beats turning your prose into a dictionary. I have to agree, though, if you're going to provide a translation, it should be the correct one.

William Buckley was noted for throwing in a lot of Latin words and phrases in his writing and his speech. He left it to the reader to decifer the meaning from the context or to look it up. I find such writing challenging, which is good, even if he was rubbing my nose in his vocabulary. But I read Buckley to learn, not for pleasure, so I didn't mind looking up an occasional Latin phrase. I've not read his fiction books, so I don't know if he used the same style when writing for divertment.

There are times when a foreign word seems to work better than an English word or phrase to describe a concept or an event, IMHO. I used the Greek word seisachtheia (Casting off of burdens) over in another thread because I thought it a better word than "bankruptcy", because of the negative connotation that bankruptcy carries. Seisachtheia was celebrated by the Greeks for hundreds of years after it was imposed. I am aware of no English word that carries the same meaning. But there, I've explained the joke, so it's not funny...

[jamiebk]

[quote="Shapley]There have been times I've given up because I couldn't make my point in 250 words or less.
V/R
Shapley[/quote]

Why does this not surprise me?

[Shapley]

Why does this not surprise me?

I'm one of those people who like to hear myself type...

[piqaboo]

The most difficulty I've ever had w reading was trying to read Cervantes "Don Quixote" (ok the title is about a page longer than that, but now you know which story I mean).
?16th? century Cervantes was probably verbose. His 19th century English translater most certainly was.

I read relatively quickly. I am not an official speed reader, and I've slowed a bit in recent years, but most novels take me 5-6 hours.
After 12 hours of Cervantes, in 15 min increments because that was all I could stand, I was less than 25% thru the book.
At that point, I left for the airport for the flight to Spain and never opened the book again.



Saberhagen's editor went to sleep w Book 7 of The Lost Swords.
I am tempted to redpen it, its so bad. Contradictions a sentence apart, what appears to be the author's original outline still left in the story, sandwiched between its expanded self, contradictions of things stated explicitely in earlier books....blech.

[Shapley]

Saberhagen's editor went to sleep w Book 7 of The Lost Swords.
I am tempted to redpen it, its so bad. Contradictions a sentence apart, what appears to be the author's original outline still left in the story, sandwiched between its expanded self, contradictions of things stated explicitely in earlier books....blech.

Interesting. I believe I mentioned in an earlier post my copy of Talbot Mundy's Tros of Samothrace. It appears as if the publisher just lifted the text file off the internet and published it with no proofreading, and no effort at typesetting. Four volumes of the orignal six are in the book, but you wouldn't know that the book itself. All four have been run together in one volume.

Each chapter is preceeded by a quotation from either Tros or one of the Druids. These were italicized in the paperback editions I had long ago, but they were merely pasted in with the rest of the text in the bundled (or should I say 'bungled') edition. It took a bit to get used to the fact that every chapter started with a sentence or two that were completely disconnected from the book.

[Giant Communist Robot]

I had a hard time with letters to the editor. Our local paper limits them to 250 words or less

Stating your point in 25 words or so shouldn't be hard. That leaves you with ~200 words to sum your reasons. What's so hard about that? Just generalize. I tell you what, why don't you try it here? Get some practice in.

[jamiebk]

I had a hard time with letters to the editor. Our local paper limits them to 250 words or less

Stating your point in 25 words or so shouldn't be hard. That leaves you with ~200 words to sum your reasons. What's so hard about that? Just generalize. I tell you what, why don't you try it here? Get some practice in.

He seems to get plenty of practice here...

[Giant Communist Robot]

I see a book I've posted here about, The men who stare at goats,has been made into a movie. Probably a better movie than book. The stories have comic possibilities missed in the book.

[Giant Communist Robot]

"WeightWatchers in 20 minutes"

"Light and healthy Chinese cooking," Jue and Chew

"Cooking Light annual recipes 2004"
I've lost nearly 30 pounds and need to keep it off

"Chinese for Dummies," Abraham

Nifty synopsis of Chinese grammar

"Barron's Mandarin Chinese," Williams and Wu

Very nice, with a useful CD

"What character is that?" Go

A dictionary. Have you ever wondered how to look up characters in a Chinese dictionary?

"Chinese in plain English," De Mente

Typical dialogs written in Pinyin, but without the tone marks--so unless you already know how its pronounced, its useless.

"Reading and Writing Chinese," McNaughton and Ying

My new hobby

"Learning Chinese Characters," Matthews and Matthews

Gives mnemonics for the 800 characters one needs to know to pass the PRC's basic literacy test (HSK level A)

"Two years in the Forbidden City," Der Ling

...and this is the reason I'm posting. This book covers a period shortly before the Dowager Empress' death. Der Ling was the daughter of a Manchu official. He was posted to Paris, and Der Ling grew up there. She learned French and English, and took dance lessons from Isadora Duncan. When she was ~20 her family returned to Peking, and Manchu custom required her to serve the Dowager in the Forbidden City. Actually, most of the time was spent at the Summer Palace as the Forbidden City was considered gloomy and depressing, and the Summer Palace had lakes with islands, streams, park-like grounds and peony covered hills.

Der Ling became a favorite of the Dowager's and gives many clues as to what her character was like. Her eyewitness descriptions of places and important people are, as far as I know, unique. She liked to give detail about the Dowager's clothes. Hardly a page goes by without a fashion update on some gown. Most interesting was the pearl cape, made from 3500 quail egg sized pearls, each of perfect shape and color. There's a photo of the Dowager wearing it.

There are some photos, and some of these I've seen in other books. Der Ling was the cause that they were taken and her brother was the photographer. Otherwise no photos of these people and places at that time would exist. Curiously there are four photos of the Emperor's funeral but no mention of it in the text. A visual non-sequiter.

Der Ling gives many examples of the Dowager's intelligence and skill at handling people. Also of her cruelty. One eunuch pulled some hair from the Dowager's head while brushing her. Not a lot, probably just a natural amount. He was dragged off into the courtyard and beaten to death.

There is no plot of course, as its just a record of her experiences as a lady in waiting. But then at the end of the book Der Ling lands a bombshell with her account of the Dowager's lament about the Boxer Rebellion. If not for this the book could be considered interesting but trivial.

I won't explain the Boxers here, but the result was a tragedy. Most historians think the Dowager first supported the Boxers, and when they were defeated, claimed she had tried to stop them from the beginning. Der Ling says the Dowager gave a tearful explanation of how her ministers mislead her and they supported the Boxers, not her; and she had always tried to protect the foreigners from harm. How one views this confession shapes your opinion: is this an eyewitness account or hearsay?

The Dowager Empress on herself:

Although I have heard much about Queen Victoria and read part of her life which someone has translated into Chinese, still I don't think her life was half so interesting as mine...England is one of the great powers of the world, but this has not been brought about by Queen Victoria's absolute rule. She had the able men of parliament back of her at all times and of course they discussed everything until the best result was obtained, then she would sign the necessary documents and really had nothing to say about the policy of the country. Now look at me. I have 400,000,000 people, all depending on my judgement.

[Shapley]

I commented on the Chinese language over in the "Expresso Kamuchea" thread, after reading Montessier's book. He notes the key thing is that the Chinese do not "draw sounds", as most languages do, but rather "draw ideas". As he says, it is a great accomplishment to be able to write the word "house" and have someone a thousand miles away be able to read what you have written. However, the impact of that accomplishment is lost if the person who reads it calls a house a "domo". The Chinese have an ideogram that means "shelter", regardless of how you pronounce it. Add the character for "family" and you change it to mean "home", again regardless of pronounciation.

Montessier makes this comment after watching a Japanese soldier and a Cambodian communicating through Chinese characters, even though neither spoke the language of the other.

I believe the Ancient Egyptians and Mayans wrote in a similar manner.

[Giant Communist Robot]

The four common methods are

pictographs, which are pictures of the objects,

ideographs, which represent abstract concepts,

complex ideographs, which are combinations of simpler characters, and

logographs, which have two elements--one suggesting the meaning and another suggesting the sound. About 80% of Chinese is logographic.

I know Japanese and Korean both use a number of Chinese characters in their language. I wouldn't be surprised to see some others mentioned either.

The Chinese have an ideogram that means "shelter", regardless of how you pronounce it

Different pronunciations are different dialects, e.g. Mandarin or Cantonese, Hokkien, etc. This is the reason Pinyin will never be the national script in China, 'cause everyone would have to learn Mandarin.

[OperaTenor]

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