California!! It's Another Country!!

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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby piqaboo » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:47 pm

Shapley wrote:I was not and am not opposed to stopping and testing users who operate motor vehicles on the public roadways, as they are a danger. However, that can be accomplished in the same manner as is done with alcohol. We've lost sight of our goal, and sacrificed our rights in the process. I'm not in favour of drugs, but I think we've gone wrong in our efforts to combat them.


Cripes, twice in one thread, in one day!
I agree. Completely.
And re the workplace - if your work is affected, its affected. You are judged on that.
If its not affected, who cares if you are using? Random tests are whacked.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby jamiebk » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:58 pm

piqaboo wrote:And re the workplace - if your work is affected, its affected. You are judged on that.
If its not affected, who cares if you are using?


I do if the person is flying the airplane I am sitting in or the train, or bus, or cab...etc. etc.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Shapley » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:19 pm

jamiebk wrote:I do if the person is flying the airplane I am sitting in or the train, or bus, or cab...etc. etc.


Once again, there are regulatory powers that allow such things as preconditions for employment and/or continued employment if public safety is at risk, particularly when the driving is on public roadways or in publicly-funded conveyances.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Haggis@wk » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:00 pm

jamiebk wrote:
piqaboo wrote:And re the workplace - if your work is affected, its affected. You are judged on that.
If its not affected, who cares if you are using?


I do if the person is flying the airplane I am sitting in or the train, or bus, or cab...etc. etc.


That is the reason I support testing, random or otherwise. And I only support that position with great reluctance. Unfortunately, consistent use had a proven deleterious affect on the users and that translates into deleterious affect on people around them. Now, of course I would be opposed to random checks to see if people have cel phones although consistent use of those devices can also have deleterious consequences, train drivers distracted while texting and plane pilots missing their "targets" while using laptops, etc.

In addition, marijuana is no longer the "harmless" low concentrate THC weed many people remember from the 60s and 70s. The THC content of today's marijuana is 10%, almost tripled from the average of 4% in the 80's. Mellow highs have yielded to THC induced paranoia and other negative effects.

As our lives become more dependent on technology more and more people are placed in positions where mistakes caused by drugs, alcohol or blackberries can have disastrous affect on many people. Frankly, I can't see any other mechanism to minimize potential consequences other than testing
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Shapley » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:14 pm

So, you are also willing to toss out the protection against self-incrimination in favour of making law enforcement's job easier?

My point is: if we focus on the dealer rather than the user, we could reduce our prison capacity and work on reducing the supply, which is what the constitution allows via the commerce clause. We ignore the Constitution at our own peril. I'm not in favour of drug use, but I don't think our current approach is working. We still have drug-users behind the wheel, and we have the prohibition-style turf wars that plagued us during prohibition.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby piqaboo » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:26 pm

When I took my first job, the QC lab wrote the raw material release specifications.
Ammonium Sulfate QC testing consisted of "Visual - white, crystalline powder".
Ammonium Chloride QC testing consisted of "Visual - white, crystalline powder".
Sodium Chloride QC testing consisted of "Visual - white, crystalline powder".
Potassium Chloride QC testing consisted of "Visual - white, crystalline powder".

you get the picture.

Chemist "Bob" was hired. Chemist Bob wrote reallio trulio identifying and purity checking specifications for these and many other
white crystalline powders in use at the time.
He also identified materials with storage issues - such as explosives.

Chemist Bob got stoned every day at lunch. Chemist Bob was indeed a bit paranoid about management.
Chemist Bob was fired eventually, for being stoned.
No one else in that QC lab, before or at the time, could write a specification any more useful than "white crystalline powder".
Whyinhell did they fire Bob?
He actually made our product safer! our workplace - safer!
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby dai bread » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:06 pm

What was Chemist Bob like to work with?

I worked with an alcoholic once. He was perfectly good at his job, but no fun at all to work with. Demanding, aggressive and smelly from intestinal troubles. He died during a drying-out process, aged 42.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby jamiebk » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:43 pm

dai bread wrote:What was Chemist Bob like to work with?

I worked with an alcoholic once. He was perfectly good at his job, but no fun at all to work with. Demanding, aggressive and smelly from intestinal troubles. He died during a drying-out process, aged 42.


My ex-boss was an alcoholic...horrible! He started out "clean" but took a nasty ride to alcoholic depths. His office smelled like minty fresh scope with a huge alcohol overtone. He had the shakes...got to the point where he couldn't remember stuff from day to day. His office door was closed from the time he arrived until the time he went home. He had more car accidents than anyone I know (two DUI's). He lost his company car. Eventually after driving his own car to work one day and trying to unsuccessfully park, he had to be put in a taxi...he actually came back for the car. He was totally drunk at 7:00AM. After a number of employees complained about his behavior he was "released" from employment. Prior to all this the guy was brilliant. One of the sharpest guys I'd ever worked with..and one of the best bosses I'd ever had. What a waste. Career shot. left the area. Left the profession.
Jamie

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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:54 pm

On the day that the unemployment rate officially tops 10 percent, the White House claim about “jobs created or saved” takes another hit. From the Sacramento Bee:

Up to one-fourth of the 110,000 jobs reported as saved by federal stimulus money in California probably never were in danger, a Bee review has found. California State University officials reported late last week that they saved more jobs with stimulus money than the number of jobs saved in Texas – and in 44 other states. In a required state report to the federal government, the university system said the $268.5 million it received in stimulus funding through October allowed it to retain 26,156 employees. That total represents more than half of CSU's statewide work force. However, university officials confirmed Thursday that half their workers were not going to be laid off without the stimulus dollars.


And here is the money quote:

"This is not really a real number of people," CSU spokeswoman Clara Potes-Fellow said. "It's like a budget number."
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Shapley » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:01 am

Haggis@wk wrote:When I was learning to be an investigator I was educated in the concept of intention as an element of proof for an offense. The classic was that a drug dealer would send a parcel of drugs to a judge or policeman then call the cops. If there was no intent on the part of the judge or policeman then they couldn't be convicted of possession. We inherited the concept of intent from English Common Law but it is slowly disappearing from newer laws.


I brought this over from the other thread, because it fit this discussion.


This ties in to my concerns over the 'war on drugs' and 'zero tolerance'. Specifically, the misuse of the 'asset forfeiture' portions of those policies. Mnay local governments have been reportedly using asset forfeiture to seize properties in which drugs were discovered, even when the owners and proprietors of those properties had no connection to the drugs or even knowledge that the drugs were there. This type of mis-application of the law is the prime reason such laws should be passed carefully and with a eye towards the potential for abuse.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:52 am

The common law burglary was defined by Sir Matthew Hale as

The breaking and entering the house of another in the night time, with intent to commit a felony therein, whether the felony be actually committed or not"


Burglary was a serious crime in Common Law England. It was recognized that people asleep at night in their dwellings were most vulnerable. The crime was very serious (today burglary in Sweden will get you a fine) with serious consequences but still the "intention" had to be proved in order to convict a crime that could result in transportation and imprisonment or death if the "felony therein" was rape or murder. If you broke into a house to recover your lawful property then its wasn't burglary because there was no "intent" to commit a felony.

There's now a trend of delegating responsibility for forming laws and regulations to non-elected bureaucrats.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Shapley » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:43 pm

Right. You will remember my previous post on drug possession laws. It used to be that one had to be in possession of more drugs than would be normally consumed by oneself, and the charge was 'possession with intent to sell'. That was necessary because federal drug laws were based on the 'regulation of commerce'. Along came the war on drugs, coupled with the idea that everything related to commerce in one way or another, and the mere possession of drugs was sufficient reason to arrest a person, regardless of the intent. It no longer mattered whether you inteded to sell them, use them, or throw them away; if you possessed them, you were guilty.

Our laws used to be to protect society, and were passed with an eye towards constitutionality and reason. Now the laws are passed to control society, and to make law enforcement's job easier. It's easy to convict if you don't have to burden yourself with determing 'why'.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby piqaboo » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:00 pm

dai bread wrote:What was Chemist Bob like to work with?

I worked with an alcoholic once. He was perfectly good at his job, but no fun at all to work with. Demanding, aggressive and smelly from intestinal troubles. He died during a drying-out process, aged 42.


Bob was grand to work with before lunch. After lunch, he was good to work with - so long as one didnt talk about supervisors etc.
He'd take extra care that we in manufacturing knew what needed to be handled in special ways.
But, his 2nd boss liked his employees to be friends too. that doesnt work too well if your employee is paranoid because you are management.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:28 pm

All or Something

"In the face of a multimillion-dollar budget deficit, Los Angeles Unified School District Superintendent Ramon Cortines ordered an immediate hiring freeze Monday," reports the Los Angeles Daily News:
The only exceptions to the hiring freeze will be for classroom teachers, principals, assistant principals, cafeteria managers, school police officers, bus drivers teachers' assistants, education aides, special education assistants and plant managers.


Inspired by Cortines's example, I've decided to quit drinking. The only exceptions will be beer, red wine, white wine, vodka, gin, rum, scotch, bourbon, Irish whiskey, Canadian whiskey, rye whiskey, Jägermeister, Kahlua and schnapps.

:rofl:
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby jamiebk » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:13 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:All or Something

"In the face of a multimillion-dollar budget deficit, Los Angeles Unified School District Superintendent Ramon Cortines ordered an immediate hiring freeze Monday," reports the Los Angeles Daily News:
The only exceptions to the hiring freeze will be for classroom teachers, principals, assistant principals, cafeteria managers, school police officers, bus drivers teachers' assistants, education aides, special education assistants and plant managers.


Inspired by Cortines's example, I've decided to quit drinking. The only exceptions will be beer, red wine, white wine, vodka, gin, rum, scotch, bourbon, Irish whiskey, Canadian whiskey, rye whiskey, Jägermeister, Kahlua and schnapps.

:rofl:


It's down to the janitors...we'll have no more of them...too expensive to replace the toilet paper you know. :roll: :roll:
Jamie

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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Shapley » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:14 pm

I guather that they'll be taking on no more students.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Haggis@wk » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:58 am

What San Francisco really needs: Public sex tents.

Well, ever since they closed those baths……
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby jamiebk » Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:11 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:What San Francisco really needs: Public sex tents.

Well, ever since they closed those baths……


Sound-proofing for the walls? :rofl:
Jamie

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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby Shapley » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:55 pm

I have a sex tent upstairs, but I don't use it. GPS has pretty much rendered the obsolete although most sailors still have one for nostalgic reasons....
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
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Re: California!! It's Another Country!!

Postby dai bread » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:02 pm

GROAN! :)
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
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