"Goverment Motors"

Everyone loves a healthy debate. Post an idea or comment about a current event or issue. Let others post their ideas also. This area is for those who love to explore other points of view.

Moderator: Nicole Marie

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Haggis@wk » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:17 pm

Ford swings to first annual profit since 2005.

Anecdotally I’m hearing life-long Dodge Ram and GM truck users swearing they will never by another GM vehicle. Texans own 15% of every pickup truck in the U.S. If just a slight margin of GM buyers switch to Ford GM will be hurting. I fully intend to never buy a vehicle from any company that is owned partially or completely by the U.S. Govt.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
Haggis@wk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6055
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Home office

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby piqaboo » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:35 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:Texans own 15% of every pickup truck in the U.S.

[nitpick] They may own 15% of all the pickup trucks in the US, but they dont own 15% of every pickup truck in the US.
Tho they are welcome to purchase a 15% stake in mine. [/nitpick]
Altoid - curiously strong.
piqaboo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 7135
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Paradise (So. Cal.)

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:20 am

U.S. Chides Toyota Over Recall: Carmaker Defends Reputation

This puts both the U.S. and Toyota in a difficult position: The U.S. is now a direct competitor to the Japanese carmaker. One has to wonder if statements made by the government are honest efforts to improve safety or sales pitches designed to shift customer attention to their own brand of automobile. This is a prime example of why the government has no business in the carmaking industry. It is not only in a position to flex its considerable muscle to garner free advertising, but it is also in a position to cripple its competitors through forced recalls and delayed approval of remedial actions by the competitors.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:27 am

Toyota, Honda Under Recall, GM, Ford, Chrysler Respond With Trade-In Offers

As I said, the government-run companies (and Ford, along for the ride) have a vested interest in keeping the recalls in the public eye.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby jamiebk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:30 pm

The transportation chief is advising people to stop driving them (Toyotas). Hey...Toyota has extracted plenty of flesh for the American car manufacturers...payback's a bitch ain't it?
Jamie

"Leave it better than you found it"
jamiebk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4284
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:01 am
Location: SF Bay Area - Wine Country

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:33 pm

jamiebk wrote:The transportation chief is advising people to stop driving them (Toyotas). Hey...Toyota has extracted plenty of flesh for the American car manufacturers...payback's a bitch ain't it?


I don't remember the transportation chief advising us not to drive GM, Ford, or Chrysler autos during any of their numerous recalls. But, then again, the transportation chief wasn't in the car business back then, was he?

"...extracted plenty of flesh" how? By offering better autos? Are you suggesting that GM's cars are now better than Toyotas? I'm suggesting that GM now merely has a bigger megaphone...
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:37 pm

Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby jamiebk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:37 pm

And they should use it (the megaphone). Ford IS building better cars now and it's true that Toyota and Honda set the bar for quality. However, our industries are hurting and are you really saying that you'd rather have your dollars go to the Japanese? Come on Shap.... :roll:
Jamie

"Leave it better than you found it"
jamiebk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4284
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:01 am
Location: SF Bay Area - Wine Country

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:45 pm

jamiebk wrote:And they should use it (the megaphone). Ford IS building better cars now and it's true that Toyota and Honda set the bar for quality. However, our industries are hurting and are you really saying that you'd rather have your dollars go to the Japanese? Come on Shap.... :roll:


I'll spend my dollars where they get the best car for the money. If that's a Japanese Car, a Brazilian Car, or an American one, it's all the same to me. If everything else is the same, I'll buy the American Car. Everything else hasn't been the same for a long time, though, so that hasn't been a factor.

I think Ford makes good vehicles, they have for a while. GM has had problems for a long time, and I don't see any evidence they've fixed them, yet. They're all overpriced, IMHO, but I'll try to get the most bang for my buck, thank you. I drove American vehicles for most of my life. The last two have had serious brake issues, the the company denied there was a problem. Now I have two foreign vehicles, and fewer problems.

FWIW, I liked the power and acceleration of my last American truck better than my current foreign one, but there were other issues that gave the foreign truck the edge.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Trumpetmaster » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:04 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35214248/ns/business-autos


and so the problems for toyota continue...
Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it.
Trumpetmaster
Patron
 
Posts: 11557
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:01 am
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Haggis@wk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:20 pm

jamiebk wrote:And they should use it (the megaphone). Ford IS building better cars now and it's true that Toyota and Honda set the bar for quality. However, our industries are hurting and are you really saying that you'd rather have your dollars go to the Japanese? Come on Shap.... :roll:


So Fords made in Canada or Mexico are more patriotic than Toyotas made in Kentucky??

I have two Toyotas, a Avalon and a 4 Runner. Both have over 150,000 miles and I have no intentions of getting rid of them any time soon. I first owned a Toyota in 1984, I bought an old 1971 Corolla to serve as my commuter car for the daily 40 mile round trip from Dale City to Bolling AFB. The car was perfect, Heater worked can't remember if it had A/C. There wasn't a bit of rust anywhere, rare for a car that'd spent over a decade on salt encrusted north VA road. I never did anything but put gas in and change the oil, about once a year.

I sold it when we went to CA and I bought a Honda that lasted for the next 10 years. When I came back from Thailand in 1996 I bought a used sporty Celica GT and again fell in love with Toyota. in 1999 I bought the Avalon, only the third new car I have ever bought. Later on I bought a 96 4 Runner, mainly to move the bigger dogs around.

If/when I buy another car, I'm going to do what I do before I buy anything; read Consumer's Report. While American cars have gotten better over the years they still don't match up to the Japanese cars. Now with "Govt Motors" I will never buy a car built by a company owned partially or outright by the Govt. I would consider a Ford pickup but it would have to compete well with a Toyota. Ford pickups are the most popular truck sold in Texas, and anytime that subject comes up on our local talk radio on WBAP, the switchboard at the station is jammed with people calling in to say they will never buy GM.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
Haggis@wk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6055
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Home office

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:22 pm

Here's the problem I've had with my Dodge Dakota pickup truck. To the best of my knowledge, Dodge has never attempted to correct the problem. From the looks of these complaintants, they've not seen a fix, either. Dodge dealers all report that they can't find any problems.

I could always unlock the brake by releasing and then depressing the pedal. Apparently, others are not so fortunate.

My Chevy S-10 had a similar problem, in which the brake shoe would freeze in a partially-braked position. It wasn't enough to slow the vehicle, but was enough to heat the brake disc till it smoked.

My Chevy Astro van had a different problem - the brakes simply seemed to be too small to stop the van if it was loaded or was traveling downhill. Very frightenting.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby jamiebk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:42 pm

Shapley wrote:Here's the problem I've had with my Dodge Dakota pickup truck. To the best of my knowledge, Dodge has never attempted to correct the problem. From the looks of these complaintants, they've not seen a fix, either. Dodge dealers all report that they can't find any problems.

I could always unlock the brake by releasing and then depressing the pedal. Apparently, others are not so fortunate.

My Chevy S-10 had a similar problem, in which the brake shoe would freeze in a partially-braked position. It wasn't enough to slow the vehicle, but was enough to heat the brake disc till it smoked.

My Chevy Astro van had a different problem - the brakes simply seemed to be too small to stop the van if it was loaded or was traveling downhill. Very frightenting.


Funny....I had the very same problem on the disc brakes of my 9174 Dodge Dart Sport. Guess they never fixed the problem.
Jamie

"Leave it better than you found it"
jamiebk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4284
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:01 am
Location: SF Bay Area - Wine Country

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Trumpetmaster » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:57 pm

I thought most american car parts were being made overseas.... shipped over here and then assembled....

did I miss something here?
Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it.
Trumpetmaster
Patron
 
Posts: 11557
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:01 am
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby analog » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:50 pm

Well, I am a fan of secondhand Chrysler products.

At 280 Kmiles I gave my '95 Dodge Caravan to a neighborhood youth. I bought it seven years old with 120Kmiles, owned it seven more years and put 160K more miles on it.
My out of pocket for initial purchase, all repairs and tires was $4200 or 2.6 cents per mile.

I found it designed for easy maintenance. Being a retired maintenance man I liked that. (Well, except for the heater....)
Prior to '98 model year you get the engine trouble codes out of a Chrysler by cycling the key four times - what a Godsend.
Brakes are extra easy because the rotor is a separate piece from the hub.


As to those sticky disk brakes -
--usually that is the little black rubber hose between the caliper and the car body. It separates inside and becomes a check valve. Insidious because it's not something you'd think of and it doesn't show visibly.
Also if a previous mechanic left it twisted it'll fail within a few months.
Did you have brake work recently?
Easy to fix yourself but you need a $20 tubing wrench to undo the fitting.
I've done it on three Fords, a Chrysler, and a Pontiac. Son had same trouble on his Ford. They all buy the hoses from same hosemakers so it's not brand specific......
The symptom is sticky brake, eventually a fire with wheel lockup if it's ignored.

hope this post saves somebody a tow.
Cogito ergo doleo.
analog
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:01 am
Location: arkansas ozarks

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby analog » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:59 pm

here's somebody else wary of computers...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10445 ... 7-1_3-0-20

Wozniak cites 'scary' Prius acceleration problem

"I don't get upset and teed off at things in life, except computers that don't work right," was his segue into the Toyota comments. ..............................

"Toyota has this accelerator problem we've all heard about," Wozniak said. "Well, I have many models of Prius that got recalled, but I have a new model that didn't get recalled. This new model has an accelerator that goes wild, but only under certain conditions of cruise control. And I can repeat it over and over and over again--safely."

"This is software. It's not a bad accelerator pedal. It's very scary, but luckily for me, I can hit the brakes," he said.
emphasis mine - a.
Cogito ergo doleo.
analog
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:01 am
Location: arkansas ozarks

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:26 pm

analog wrote:Well, I am a fan of secondhand Chrysler products.

At 280 Kmiles I gave my '95 Dodge Caravan to a neighborhood youth. I bought it seven years old with 120Kmiles, owned it seven more years and put 160K more miles on it.
My out of pocket for initial purchase, all repairs and tires was $4200 or 2.6 cents per mile.

I found it designed for easy maintenance. Being a retired maintenance man I liked that. (Well, except for the heater....)
Prior to '98 model year you get the engine trouble codes out of a Chrysler by cycling the key four times - what a Godsend.
Brakes are extra easy because the rotor is a separate piece from the hub.


As to those sticky disk brakes -
--usually that is the little black rubber hose between the caliper and the car body. It separates inside and becomes a check valve. Insidious because it's not something you'd think of and it doesn't show visibly.
Also if a previous mechanic left it twisted it'll fail within a few months.
Did you have brake work recently?
Easy to fix yourself but you need a $20 tubing wrench to undo the fitting.
I've done it on three Fords, a Chrysler, and a Pontiac. Son had same trouble on his Ford. They all buy the hoses from same hosemakers so it's not brand specific......
The symptom is sticky brake, eventually a fire with wheel lockup if it's ignored.

hope this post saves somebody a tow.


I haven't had the Chevy S-10 for many years. That problem occured when it was brand new, I drove it off the lot and headed for California - the brake locked up somewhere in New Mexico. I pulled over when I began to lose speed and smelled smoke - apparently as the disc got hotter the expansion caused it to get tighter and tighter until it began to slow the vehicle considerably, by the time I pulled over the disc was smoking. I restarted the truck after letting it cool a while, pumped the brake pedal a few times to make sure it was working, and headed on my way. No more trouble until I arrived in California. The same thing happened several times over the life of the truck - mechanics never found anything wrong.

The Dakota has a similar yet different problem - I blame it on the Anti-lock brakes. If you hit the brakes hard they will sometimes lock on one side, usually the right front, and cause the truck to swerve that direction. An audible 'click' can be heard, which leads me to believe the ABS is trying to pump them, but cannot. Again, all you have to do is release the brake and re-press it, and it has always gone away - easy enough if you don't panic. Of course, when you're sliding towards another vehicle, releasing the brake is not normally your first inclination...

I wondered about the family killed in the Toyota with the stuck accelartor. He was a highway patrolman, and his wife had time to call and report that the accelerator was stuck and they had no brakes, and were heading into a busy intersection. I would have thought the patrolman would have had the presence of mind to shift into neutral and/or shut off the key. It is unclear from what I've read whether or not he tried the emergency brake, but they sometimes won't lock if the vehicle is in gear - again a patrolman should have known that.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby analog » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:17 pm

If you hit the brakes hard they will sometimes lock on one side, usually the right front, and cause the truck to swerve that direction.


ABS is computer controlled. It is SUPPOSED to measure each wheel's rotational speed and modulate individual brake cylinder pressures so that no wheel locks up......
At BMW performance driving school they teach that best way to emergency stop is slam brake pedal down hard and hold it, do NOT pump the brakes instead let the computer handle the wheels. Exactly counter-intuitive.
sounds like yours is not modulating your right side.

No ABS or Check Engine light?

When the ABS loses power a sane system should revert to old timey 'fluid goes from master straight through the tubes to the wheel cylinders' system. But there exist variants that won't stop you without ABS active.

I had a friend worked for an airline in 1970's. Shortly after ABS's showed up on airliners there appeared a maintenance practice known as "Re-Rack the Brakes", to correct erratic ABS behavior .
I asked "what's that mean?"
Answer was "Take the computer out and put it on the shelf for a week, then put it back in.."
I immediately said "Please Lord don't let them ever put these things on automobiles..."

Well now I have two ABS vehicles (in addition to my computerized pacemaker). I'm gonna have to learn ABS.

I'd bet a hundred dollars that your S-10 had a defective rubber brake hose on that wheel. Indeed it can be intermittent and is very puzzling, still your mechanics should have changed the hose for prevention..... but it's an almost thirty dollar part...

Just something to remember.
We guys will put up with pesky little things like sticky brake, but the Wife's car has to be kept Just So.

a.
Cogito ergo doleo.
analog
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:01 am
Location: arkansas ozarks

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby jamiebk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:40 pm

analog wrote:I'd bet a hundred dollars that your S-10 had a defective rubber brake hose on that wheel. Indeed it can be intermittent and is very puzzling, still your mechanics should have changed the hose for prevention..... but it's an almost thirty dollar part...a.


ABS is kaput on my '96 Ford Ranger. At $2500 for a new modulator, I am quite content to brake the old fashioned way...I drove that way for 30 years even in ice and snow.
Jamie

"Leave it better than you found it"
jamiebk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4284
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:01 am
Location: SF Bay Area - Wine Country

Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:48 pm

analog wrote:No ABS or Check Engine light?


No, no light. And, as I said, everything was 'fine' when the mechanics checked it.

We guys will put up with pesky little things like sticky brake, but the Wife's car has to be kept Just So.


True. The same with our kids' cars. We don't trust them to make the same decisions we've learned to make. My first car was a $50 Chevelle. It took a few months to learn all of its little quirks. Once you got used to them, you just lived with them. It had a sticky accelerator, too. the connecting rod had a burr on it that would catch at times. If it did so, you had to punch it to get it unstuck. Finally, it took several punches to get it unstuck - scared the crap out of me, so I had it replaced. It was something like a $17 part, and cost a couple of beers to get it changed, but $17 and two beers was a lot money in those days...

Then, again, we didn't have the traffic in those days we have now. If you screwed up and weren't as swift at compensating as you thought you were, the odds were you'd just end up in a ditch or fenceline.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15196
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

PreviousNext

Return to The Debate Team

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron