"Goverment Motors"

[Haggis@wk]

NOW IT’S brake issues for Ford hybrids. Funny how these problems keep hitting non-bailout companies.

[Shapley]

I have to wonder if the 'drive by wire' system is suffering from interference from some outside source: cell phones, electrical lines, etc. Or perhaps, more likely, a combination of sources.

This would make it difficult to reproduce in the laboratory. The would first have determine the source of the interference and then create the proper conditions in the laboratory in order to find a cure. If only the real world worked like it does on CSI, they'd have it figured out by now.

[Haggis@wk]

I have to wonder if the 'drive by wire' system is suffering from interference from some outside source: cell phones, electrical lines, etc. Or perhaps, more likely, a combination of sources.

This would make it difficult to reproduce in the laboratory. The would first have determine the source of the interference and then create the proper conditions in the laboratory in order to find a cure. If only the real world worked like it does on CSI, they'd have it figured out by now.

Like Audi, Toyota faces a national perception, exampled by Jamie’s post above. A perceived fact is a fact in the mind of the perceiver. I've got no dog in this hunt but we've gone from anecdotal to a baying MSM being encouraged by sources in the Obama Administration and now the trail lawyers smell blood.

I think it’s about time to look at Toyota stock and a replacement for the MRHYN’s 99 Avalon.

UPDATE

Hmmmm, maybe a re-think about both is in order

…But Toyota’s reputation was built on those “fat” products of the mid-80s to early-90s, and it won’t be returning to the old practices that created them anytime soon due to their competitive disadvantages. This seems to suggest that, once damaged, Toyota is unlikely to ever recover its former quality halo

[analog]

Hmmmm, maybe a re-think about both is in order

interesting article there. It sure focused on the management aspect.... I'm not management material.

as an old machinery maintenance man this was the most significant line to me:

The fact that Denso-built pedals do not appear to suffer from the same problem as CTS-supplied pedals indicates that this might be a supplier-specific problem, rather than the result of a systemic de-emphasis on quality at Toyota.

it is real dangerous to troubleshoot on somebody else's observations.. before jumping on CTS's pedal i would have to take one apart and compare it to a disassembled Denso. Might be that simple.

If wife's '99 Avalon has throttle plate controlled by a cable instead of electric motor i'd hold on to it for about five years. By then they'll have the kinks out.

This line in the report:

The real extent of this cost-cutting, decontenting and “design leaning” won’t be easy to quantify, but the fact that it’s been taking place since the early nineties and is only now yielding negative effects suggests that it’s been relatively well-managed.

may be true for a manufacturing company, i don't know never spent much time in one.
For an operating company, when the "axe-men" whack maintenance the effects take a few years to show. The guys in the plants will hold things together with duct tape. The ax-man shows an immediate increase in profits(maintenance is expensive), collects his bonus and hands his successor a jalopy of a company. That i have witnessed.

I have to wonder if the 'drive by wire' system is suffering from interference from some outside source: cell phones, electrical lines, etc. Or perhaps, more likely, a combination of sources.

Computers are just "Flakey". Well, more accurately they are incredibly nit-pickey, not very fault tolerant. Here's an example from my experience:
We had big troubles in the plant simulator once - it would do utterly unpredictable things once every few minutes.
Took weeks to track it down to a couple integrated circuits that had a strange behavior - 99.9% of the time they'd transmit their signals perfectly. But randomly about one communication in a thousand would last too long by a few nanoseconds, sometimes as many as fifty.
We were hunting a needle in a haystack. In fact a phantom needle that was there only 0.00005% of the time.
Turned out a particular batch of a particular manufacturer's IC's was weak but statistical quality testing had not caught it and they made their way into the finished product.

It's the nature of the beast. That's why i stand by my old adage, "Never ever let a computer do anything really important".

I don't claim to know but i expect this gas pedal problem will turn out to be something similar that could have been caught by 100% component testing on incoming parts . I pray it's not workmanship at CTS.

Very few manufacturers do 100% component testing on incoming parts it adds too much to parts cost. Statistical quality control is the norm. Probably aerospace is different i do not know .

sorry to be long winded - it's the "old firehorse " response in this old troubleshooter .



a.

[Shapley]

One of my previous vehicles had a digital radio. It worked fine 99 44/100% of the time. However, at random intervals, the volume would go up, sometimes all the way up. Once it even changed stations on its own. There was no remote control, so that wasn't the problem. I don't know if it was sunspots or stray voltage or if Gremlins just liked the songs that were playing at those particular time.

[Haggis@wk]

If wife's '99 Avalon has throttle plate controlled by a cable instead of electric motor i'd hold on to it for about five years. By then they'll have the kinks out.

It does and she loves the car.We follow the maintenance schedule recommended by the manual, not the dealer. You're a gear head so maybe you can answer this. From the time we had maybe 40K on the avalon the dealer kept bugging us to replace the timing chain. We held out until it was within 10K of the manual's recommendation, around 65 0r 70K. Now we have 167K on it and not a peep about replacing the timing chain. Curoius

[analog]

From the time we had maybe 40K on the avalon the dealer kept bugging us to replace the timing chain. We held out until it was within 10K of the manual's recommendation, around 65 0r 70K. Now we have 167K on it and not a peep about replacing the timing chain. Curoius

At 40K he was "Churning" your account IMHO.
And it sounds to me like he's dropped the ball now.

When you said 'timing CHAIN ' i got curious - chains should last forever.

I was astonished to learn Toyota builds intereference engines with timing belts.
'Interference' means there's not enough room at top of cylinder for the piston to be there when a valve is open.
That means if the timing chain or belt breaks the pistons will come up and bend any open valves out of their way as the engine coasts to a stop. Then you're not only stranded but have BIG engine trouble. That's why i didn't keep that old Corolla...

According to Gates, who likely made the belt for Toyota, yours is an interference engine with a belt.
I believe the actual life of a belt is around 140K miles hence the 70 k replacement interval.
I saw LOTS of dodge caravans at the car crusher with 140 to 160 K miles probably just needed belts.
Gates says yours is a 90Kmile belt.
here's a link to their chart, it's a pdf download.. i wrote them and got a hardcopy of it...
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... wBB30FkKPQ

Is your Avalon a 3.0 V6? It's on the gates chart page 21, pdf's page 24 of 31...

So I'd replace that belt very soon lest it strand you and cause you to have to basically overhaul the engine.
They break with no warning and you immediately coast to stop.
See page 27(30 of 31) on the Gates chart.

I have replaced belts four times on Dodge Caravan's, used to take me a day but last time was two - i'm slowing down.
Dodge was not an interference engine but i don't like getting towed home.
You have to take all the stuff off front of engine. Not hard but tedious and uncomfortably tight place to work.
Belt for Dodge was about forty bucks, dealer belt will be twice that. it's labor intense...that's where the cost is so I'd figure on a few hundred bucks. Dealer might get it done in half a day.
While you're in there replace the water pump too, yours is driven by timing belt so it's buried way down deep in there like my Dodge was. Don't go in there twice... my first one i got to do again in two months when water pump started leaking.

if you do it yourself get a shop manual and a 1/4 inch drive air rachet.

Hope this saves you a tow....
a.

[Haggis@wk]

I need to check the maintenance records, maybe they replaced the TB and I forgot. The MRHYN is pretty insistent on the scheduled maintenance (all that nursing background, I suspect) and gets...."unpleasant" when I miss it by much. I'll call tomorrow. I need to check on the 4Runner. I've had it since 50K and it's at 144K now and, again, I don't recall discussing a TB. Both engines are V6 and TBs run about $600 as I recall.

[analog]

well - i've learned a lot looking at stuff related to this thread.

found an article about the electronic control system in today's cars.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/can_systems.htm

Controller Area Network (CAN) electrical systems began to appear in new vehicles in 2003. Since then, more and more vehicles have been equipped with CAN systems, until 2008 when virtually all passenger cars and light trucks sold in the U.S. were CAN-equipped.

They're another brilliant idea from Europe.

CAN was created in 1984 by the Robert Bosch Corp. in anticipation of future advances in onboard electronics. The first production application was in 1992 on several Mercedes-Benz models. Today you will find it on all new vehicles.

the paragraphs around this picture are telling.

How CAN Data is Sent and Received

If your eyes haven't glazed over yet, here's how data is sent and received in a CAN system. Every module (node) that is attached to the data bus network is capable of sending and receiving signals. Each module (node) has its own unique address on the network. This allows the module to receive the inputs and data it needs to function, while ignoring information intended for other modules that share the network. When a module transmits information over the network, the information is coded so all the other modules recognize where it came from....

........Still with me? There's more! One of the tasks of any network system is to keep all the messages separated so they don't collide and garble one another. Usually the body control module or instrument cluster module is assigned the task of managing the network traffic. When it sees a message coming over the bus, it looks at the first bit in the data stream. If the bit is a "0", the message is given priority over the others. This is called a "dominant" message. If the first bit is a "1" it is given a lower priority (a "recessive" message). Thus, the highest priority messages always get through to their intended destinations but the low priority messages may be temporarily blocked until the traffic eases up...........


CAN Faults

CAN-compliant vehicles are just as vulnerable to electronic faults as older vehicles. Though CAN systems use fewer wires and fewer connectors to save weight and cost, they also use more modules and more complicated modules. Communication problems can occur if module connectors become corroded or loose, if wires become grounded, shorted or break, or system voltage is below specifications. Some modules may even forget their settings or locations if the battery is disconnected or goes dead.............


One of the features of CAN and other network systems is that modules can send and receive "ok" signals to let the main control module know if they are working or not. In theory, this makes diagnostics easier. On the other hand, it also means that one misbehaving module may generate enough noise to disrupt the entire network causing a complete shutdown of the vehicle!........

it's a computer system not fundamentally different from that power plant simulator i described way up above, with exception the simulator controls a make believe power plant and the CAN system controls a real automobile....


I know i'm sorta the board eccentric here... but i will not myself own an automobile with this kind of controls on throttle or brakes or steering. . I worked on computers for too many years.

But then i'm the guy who always reads the "Equipment" column when making up my airline itineraries to see what type plane it'll be. . I don't get on Airbuses, either.

Seriously i believe we will see a return to mechanical throttle linkage in a few years.

a.

[Shapley]

They're another brilliant idea from Europe.

Centralized Control, a European Dream. They've Socialized our cars, we'll be next...

[analog]

Many of you have quipped about the IT culture.

http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/regulatory ... /faqs.html

What has been the operating experience with digital I&C safety systems installed in nuclear power plants?

During the past 20 years, there have been a significant number of safety-related and important-to-safety digital systems or components installed in operating nuclear power plants. The safety-related digital systems were developed in accordance with the requirements in Appendix B to 10 CFR Part 50 and generally have operated safely. However, 38 out of approximately 100 operating plants have reported potential and actual common-mode failures in many of these systems. Some common-mode failures affected a single plant, while others affected several plants using the same digital system.

Forgive them father for they know not what they do.

[analog]

trying to delete double post having heck of a time connection keeps resetting , timing out, blue screens of death...

is there an IT sedition filter here?

a.

[jamiebk]

trying to delete double post having heck of a time connection keeps resetting , timing out, blue screens of death...

is there an IT sedition filter here?

a.

I had a bunch of those double post entries on Sunday...don't know what was doing it.

[Shapley]

Mine tried to do that earlier today, but the "cannot post so soon" message came up. When I hit "submit" it took me to the preview window, so I just thought I had hit the 'preview' button by mistake. When I hit 'submit', it gave me the error message.

I gather they are trying to re-instate the anti-flood feature, and it's giving them some problems.

[analog]

found some information on automobile 'drive by wire' systems if anybody is curious.

Toyota's very basic introductory video -
http://www.toyota.com/recall/?siteid=OM ... CID4251043

Bosch's introduction, a little more technical
http://www.advancedautomotivetraining.c ... 0State.pdf


An interesting primer... sounds like perhaps it's put out by a service equipment supplier in Ford's hometown..
http://www.dgtech.com/images/primer.pdf
there's some logic analyzer printout and oscilloscope traces around pages five to seven...

Let me paint a real simple word picture, if i can, for the nontechnical folks.

Drive by wire system is like a long hallway with maybe a hundred doors.
Behind each door is a controller module for part of the car.
Any of the controllers may if he wishes shout a message out into the hall, provided he first listens to make sure nobody else is shouting at that instant. Or at least nobody more important than himself.

First thing he shouts is his name.
Name establishes pecking order, for example brake pedal trumps radio knob... if brake pedal is talking then radio knob must not interrupt. Brake pedal could however interrupt radio knob, he's higher in the pecking order and since he hears what's going on in the hallway he knows who's talking and whether he's privileged to interrupt.

His message follows which might be a command for another module to do something, or it might be just some information like what is brake pedal position or to what level should the subwoofer volume be set.

[ In that third link, dgtech, top of page five is a series of shouts as recorded by a logic analyzer listening in on the hallway:
At time 000000 microseconds a shouter named 0B2 shouted "00 48 00 48 00 00" ; perhaps that's "Indian Love Call' i don't know...

1/200th of a second later, time 004510 microseconds, 2D2 shouted "00" - perhaps "Youuu~ooo~uuuu~ooooo~uuuu"

and so on ]

The electronics is so fast that the system is never (hopefully) logjammed by message traffic. Data crashes occur but those are checked for and the messages resent, and statistics gives high probability things will flow smoothly at least to human perception..

It's a marvelous thing to watch one of these systems work.
But the shared hallway is a vulnerable point - single failure there can mess up a lot of stuff.
The hallway is typically a pair of wires to which all the modules in a locality of the car are wired. That Bosch paper describes a several standard configurations. I haven't found Toyota's yet...

Sharing functions over one pair of wires creates the possibility of unintended interactions.
If one of the hallway shouters gets a frog in his throat and "Baby Bottle Warmer- go Full ON" comes out sounding like "Testing Throttle Motor- go Full ON", what would happen if that somehow got past the error checker??

Now i did oversimplify a bit, bottle warmer and throttle motor should be on separate (but still connected) hallways so there's more separation than i described. But i wanted to plant the concept.

That's pretty much what happened to us in that simulator post i described way earlier - the needle in the haystack... those weak chips were garbling names so that messages got criss-crossed in unpredictable patterns. Mr Throttle sometimes followed instructions intended for Mr Bottle....or even Mr Bubble..
That sort of trouble can be weak parts or an error of thinking that caused a weakness to be built into design...
It takes electronic nerds with $150K logic analyzers and hard core programmers working in unison to figure those things out.. and when I hear on the news that Toyota isn't absolutely positive what's causing their acceleration, my heart goes out to those poor electronic nerds and programmers who are doubtless working around the clock under immense pressure.. i been there.


My point here is there's a law of diminishing returns that's just as much a law of nature as F=MA.
The regional talking controllers for various areas of a car save manufacturing cost and add a lot of glitz.
But should they really put a thinking machine in between you and the basic controls? It can really diminish the returns...as recent events show.

In electrical machinery maintenance there's a most fundamental principle - never work downstream of anything automatic because to do so places your life at the whim of a remorseless robot.

and that's my opinion.

a.

[dai bread]

In electrical machinery maintenance there's a most fundamental principle - never work downstream of anything automatic because to do so places your life at the whim of a remorseless robot.

That's why I always take the fuse out of the main switchboard and put it in my pocket when I'm working on the house wiring.

The circuit breakers that are used in more modern installations are a problem. They don't dismantle like fuses do, unless they're replacements and the base of the old fuse-holder is still being used. "Oh look, someone's turned the switch off. No wonder the (thing) doesn't go!" Cue sound of frying. No such problem if the fuse is in my pocket.

[analog]

The circuit breakers that are used in more modern installations are a problem.

most i've seen have a handle with a little hole in it. that hole can be used to attach a prominent note:
"Don't Close this Switch - I'm working in the basement!!!--- Dad"

and i think that's what the little hole is for.

In industry we used elaborate tagging procedures and i find that extraordinary caution has spilled over into my home life.

No such problem if the fuse is in my pocket.

There's just no substitute for common sense, is there?

a.

[analog]

Not to mention i just got back from checking my '03 Ford Ranger.
I was GREATLY RELIEVED to find the throttle plate is operated by a mechanical steel cable that goes to the gas pedal.
I don't need a logic analyzer to check its health just a flashlight.

And I was serious about my not flying on Airbuses.

a.

[Haggis@wk]

And I was serious about my not flying on Airbuses.

Me too, especially after that airshow crash when it came out that the computer decided that the pilot didn't know what he was doing and overruled his input.

[analog]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-toyota-electronics-design-flaw-causes-sudden-acceleration-video.html
watch the video with ABC logo on it... a couple inches down in article.. after it loads it changes to guys sitting in front seat...

sigh, those poor technicians at Toyota....
if the video is legit and this guy is right it's huge for toyota - back to drawing board on their whole electronic system.
It'll prompt an industry rethink of "100% drive by wire" concept.

late entry - Yet something just doesn't seem quite right. I'll give this a couple days to percolate - it didn't make evening news that i saw, and as you guys noted it seems somebody is mighty anxious to pillory Toyota.

Give those technicians time to tinker with their instruments and they'll find it.

a.