"Goverment Motors"

[jamiebk]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-toyota-electronics-design-flaw-causes-sudden-acceleration-video.html
watch the video with ABC logo on it... a couple inches down in article.. after it loads it changes to guys sitting in front seat...

sigh, those poor technicians at Toyota....
if the video is legit and this guy is right it's huge for toyota - back to drawing board on their whole electronic system.
It'll prompt an industry rethink of "100% drive by wire" concept.

late entry - Yet something just doesn't seem quite right. I'll give this a couple days to percolate - it didn't make evening news that i saw, and as you guys noted it seems somebody is mighty anxious to pillory Toyota.

Give those technicians time to tinker with their instruments and they'll find it.

a.

All along, I have suspected that this was not a mechanical problem...i.e. floor mats and gas pedals. Logically anyone should have known that when Toyota owners complained of uncontrolled acceleration. A "stuck" gas pedal doesn't accelerate a car...it just doesn't slow down. And usually a couple of good taps or stomps on the pedal "fixes" whatever was stuck. This has always been a problem of electronics. So now we have a bunch of people riding around in "repaired" cars thinking that everything is OK. OK, that is until their car again accelerates out of control. They are driving around with a false sense of security.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I'm still happily driving my Camry. When I checked the recall information website, there seem to be three items of attention - the floormats, the accelerator pedal, and the brake system. My floormat stays put - it's even hard to get it up to vacuum under it - and I'm now comfortable with the pedal "feel" of the accelerator and brake pedals. I grant you, both of them felt weird when I first got the hybrid. Very different from Igor the Sienna or Fred the Tercel. I wonder how much of the perceived problem is simply that the hybrid system feels so very different from the other Toyotas.

I'm watching for something more substantial on the brake system issues. I think that there is a data bus/software problem there, somewhere, and I have the deepest sympathy for the people trying to figure out where the gremlins are hiding.

[Haggis@wk]

An Orchestrated Campaign Against Toyota in Overdrive?

“An unsettling series of events before its leaders’ congressional testimony points to just that. . . . I do hope that the folks at Toyota fully appreciate the ugliness they’re up against.”

Congress deliberately humiliating a very popular Japanese businessman from a country that hold $746BIL of our treasury securities doesn’t strike me as very good politics. One of the countries that holds that debt is going to start rattling that saber (China hinted at it last week) and our Treasury is going to have to raise rates to attract customers for our other debt.

Since a lot of the Toyotas under fire are built in the U.S. that's also going to hurt as well. LaHood is sounding like a cheap movie gangster. "Gangster government" indeed.

[Shapley]

I've said as much before. This is what you get when government gets into the manufacturing business - they abuse their authority to hinder competition. Toyota was the number one car maker, so the competitors want them cut down to size.

Toyota does lead in the number of unintended acceleration problems, but the problem does not appear to be unique to them.

[jamiebk]

An Orchestrated Campaign Against Toyota in Overdrive?

“An unsettling series of events before its leaders’ congressional testimony points to just that. . . . I do hope that the folks at Toyota fully appreciate the ugliness they’re up against.”

Congress deliberately humiliating a very popular Japanese businessman from a country that hold $746BIL of our treasury securities doesn’t strike me as very good politics. One of the countries that holds that debt is going to start rattling that saber (China hinted at it last week) and our Treasury is going to have to raise rates to attract customers for our other debt.

Since a lot of the Toyotas under fire are built in the U.S. that's also going to hurt as well. LaHood is sounding like a cheap movie gangster. "Gangster government" indeed.

Now just hold on there a minute Haggis....

humiliating a very popular Japanese businessman

??? This "Businessman" is responsible for at least 20 American deaths and some 250 accidents of varying degrees. Toyota has sucked countless millions of $$$$ from the US with revenue from car sales. Now they engage in a cover-up of the problems with their defective cars and you're worried about humlilating him????? Gimme a break

[Shapley]

This "Businessman" is responsible for at least 20 American deaths and some 250 accidents of varying degrees. Toyota has sucked countless millions of $$$$ from the US with revenue from car sales. Now they engage in a cover-up of the problems with their defective cars and you're worried about humlilating him????? Gimme a break

Which equates to what percentage of the 8.5 million recalled vehicles? We've had post-fatality recalls before: Firestone, Ford Pinto, Corvair, etc., but without the public grilling you see Toyota going through.

How did they 'suck' US revenue, by selling willing consumers popular automobiles that were better rated than their US competitors? As I noted in my link, Toyota has a much lower rate of NHTS compaints than their competitors. Nor have all of those deaths been confirmed as being related to the acceleration and braking problems. Because of the public nature of this grilling, many accidents are being reported as recall-issue-related in order to bolster claims against the company. Accidents that may have been 'pilot error' are now being 'linked' to these problems, but that does not make it true.

[jamiebk]

How did they 'suck' US revenue, .

Uh...I guess you never heard of a trade deficit?

[Shapley]

Uh...I guess you never heard of a trade deficit?

I think I recall something being said about it. But I ask, again, are you saying Toyota is at fault for selling better cars than their US counterparts, at lower prices than their US counterparts? I think the fault lies not with Toyota but with their US counterparts. Toyota did not 'suck' the money over there, we sent it willingly.

Here, for instance, is a report on a forced recall by Chrysler. This is the type of things that led consumers to seek to buy Toyotas instead of Chryslers. Now the shoe is somewhat on the other foot, and US carmakers, who've been guilty of doing the same thing numerous times in the past, are cheering the government on to 'go get 'em'. Shameless.

[Haggis@wk]

Jamie,
This is a witch hunt by congressmen bought and paid for by the UAW who has a major stock holding in GM (stolen by the president and given to them) and who wants to get their hands on the 31,000 Toyota U.S. workers.

As Shapley pointed out, there have been more egregious recalls before this that didn't require a congressional investigation; the Audi SA reporting for instance. And remember that the Audi complaints were exactly based on the same basis as this one, anecdotal reporting and some accidents that might or might not have been caused by the vehicle. Audi's was never resolved and this one probably won't either. Audi contended that the problems were caused by driver error, specifically pedal misapplication. Subsequently, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concluded in 1989 that the majority of unintended acceleration cases, including all the Audi ones, were caused by driver error such as confusion of pedals.

Toyota will go away, redesign all its cars, and wait for the tempest to blow over.

This is EXACTLY what you get when the government owns a car company and see a chance to sell more cars. It sickening and frankly un-American.

[analog]

Folks i am sorta a nerd myself, more interested in the electronic side of this than the business side. I have been where those poor toyota technicians are , you spend days and nights watching bus traffic on a logic analyzer busting your brain what's going on and why one in a zillion instructions fouls up. It's life changing and you'll do thirty hour shifts to fix it. And I only had a power plant simulator at stake not the life of my company...hence my feelings for those techs.

That aside, last night i emailed my daughter who owns a Sienna and her hubby a Scion. What i told her to do is get on an isolated stretch of road, stop the car, then floor it and practice turning off the key and bringing it to a stop . Several times. That way she'll get the feel for brake pedal with no vacuum boost and, if those electronic transmiisions don't keep wheeling the engine like old mechanical ones do she'll know what powerless steering feels like. I told her do it several times so you get habit of do not turn the key to LOCK... that'd be danger of shifting into neutral - if in your excitement you turned off key you'd likely go through OFF to LOCK and hit a tree...

I'd suggest you think about that, Selma. The odds of malfunction are miniscule but the consequences horrific so that ounce of prevention is leveraged into good investment. But then you seem mighty sensible, so just being aware may be adequate for someone of your obviously calm composure.

Just to know what i have myself a couple days ago I turned off key in my 92 Oldsmobile going down a long hill. Transmission keeps the engine spinning so there's power steering and vacuum for the brakes. I guess it's not an overly electronic transmission.

btw when you lose vacuum boost it takes a LOT more brake pedal pressure than old fashioned non-power brakes.
I learned on my Ranger that they use a different pedal for power than manual brakes, the fulcrum is in a different place so you have less leverage. The shop manual mentions it and i looked, sure enuf the brake pedal itself is stamped on the side AUTO or MANUAL and the master cylinder is mounted higher on non-power to align with fulcrum...
That's the reason people report brake failure with this malfunction. it'd take Arnold Schwarzenegger legs to overcome an engine that's still in gear with wide open throttle plate - it has no vacuum to boost your brakes BECAUSE the throttle is wide open!!!!

Now that's dominoes stacked up for you - a single failure that applies full power, takes away 90% of your brakes, and leaves no trouble code. That's why early ones were chalked off to bad driving no doubt.


As i told Dai - excess caution has spilt over into my home life. Sorry if this comes off as dead horse flagellation.

be safe guys. And I still like Toyotas. But still my most beloved vehicles have been Chryslers, a '62 Newport and that '95 Caravan.

and i think that's all i have to say ...

over and out, a.

[Shapley]

There is still an emergency brake, in an emergency. To the best of my knowledge those are still a direct linkage brake. Some of them do kick off if the vehicle is in gear, so you have to hold them down or, perhaps, shift to neutral to use them.

[jamiebk]

Toyota will go away, redesign all its cars, and wait for the tempest to blow over.

With this I agree. Clearly however, it has taken extraordinary action to get them to address the issue. Fortunaltely, you are correct...they will redesign the cars as a result.

[Haggis@wk]

Toyota will go away, redesign all its cars, and wait for the tempest to blow over.

With this I agree. Clearly however, it has taken extraordinary action to get them to address the issue. Fortunaltely, you are correct...they will redesign the cars as a result.

Just like 60 minutes drove Audi from the market for a decade or more (knowing full well of the NHTSC finding that it was the Audi owners fault), the MSM will do the same for Toyota. Unfortunately, unlike Audi, there are a lot of Toyotas in the U.S. Fortunately for Toyota, it has large amounts of loyal fans (I'm one) who will help Toyota get over this faster than Audi. Although this shameful congressional hearing won't help much. I heard LaHood tell Toyota drivers to not drive their cars at all and insist that Toyota dealers send tow trucks to pick them up and take them in for repairs. That's scare mongering pure and simple and is disgusting to me.

[Shapley]

So you now have a sample of what is in store if a 'public option' for health insurance is put in place. Congressional hearings on every little complaint about private insurance companies, led by the owners of the competing public insurance company. Intensified pilloring of private insurance, and efforts to impose mandates designed to weaken the competition.

[analog]

..............

Here, for instance, is a report on a forced recall by Chrysler. This is the type of things that led consumers to seek to buy Toyotas instead of Chryslers. Now the shoe is somewhat on the other foot, and US carmakers, who've been guilty of doing the same thing numerous times in the past, are cheering the government on to 'go get 'em'. Shameless.

from that link:

These defective ABS systems were manufactured by the Bendix division of the AlliedSignal Corporation, and are commonly known as the "Bendix 10 ABS."

i think I saw one of those Bendix #10 ABS's once. It was on a Chrysler minivan and it was dead. The minivan belonged to a lady who was afraid to drive it out of her driveway. I tried it thought maybe i could get it to the shop for her but the pedal force required to effect ANY braking was ridiculous. I couldn't hold the car against a fast idle . Reservoir was full and pedal was solid it just didn't do anything. I advised her it was really unsafe, have 'em tow it in..
Where you'd expect a master cylinder to be was a strange contraption with electric motor and high pressure fluid reservoir and about six hydraulic tubes coming out. I made a mental note when looking at used cars to look at master cylinder and if it's one of those, quickly flee.

this you don't want:

bigger photo at http://www.nybclub.org/membercars/74-78 ... nder02.jpg


this is okay:

bigger photo at http://www.nybclub.org/membercars/74-78 ... nder19.jpg

this guy replaced his ABS 10 with conventional non ABS master cylinder:

Since the 90-93 Imperial is such a joy to drive, as any owner would attest, I decided to retrofit the failing ABS system on my 1990 Imperial with the same old non-ABS style braking system that is found in the Imperial's sister cars, the New Yorker and Dynasty. This type of braking system has been tried and proven effective and reliable for decades...why mess with something that works! Parts for this retrofit are affordable and readily available new, rebuilt or from a salvage yard.

http://www.nybclub.org/membercars/74-78 ... index.html

in fact photos above are before and after on same car...

Bravo!

That is the "variant" ABS system i spoke of way back there. It uses fluid pumped into a reservoir at around 2,100 psi for power brakes instead of a simple vacuum powered force amplifier. When the electric pump dies and you lose that fluid pressure , pedal force becomes preposterous. It was used on several Chryslers and a few GM's... probably they're all junked by now. It was a mistake to make normal brakes dependent on ABS pump.

a.

[dai bread]

I had an English Triumph 2000 several years ago. It stopped fine & dandy when the engine was running, but I made the mistake once of coasting it down a very gentle slope without bothering to turn on the engine. While I'm nowhere near The Governator's league, I'm reasonably strong, and I only just managed to stop that car before it reached the end of the slope and hit something.

I've never done that again, not with any car that has power brakes.

[Haggis@wk]

I had an English Triumph 2000 several years ago. It stopped fine & dandy when the engine was running, but I made the mistake once of coasting it down a very gentle slope without bothering to turn on the engine. While I'm nowhere near The Governator's league, I'm reasonably strong, and I only just managed to stop that car before it reached the end of the slope and hit something.

I've never done that again, not with any car that has power brakes.

I had a 1959 TR-3A, what a piece of s**t. I loved that car!!

[analog]

I had a 1959 TR-3A, what a piece of s**t. I loved that car!!

similarly that '59 Healey 3000.. British cars are wonderful when you aren't at the back bumper pushing them home. " Electrics by Lucas, the Prince of Darkness "

[dai bread]

I had a 1959 TR-3A, what a piece of s**t. I loved that car!!

similarly that '59 Healey 3000.. British cars are wonderful when you aren't at the back bumper pushing them home. " Electrics by Lucas, the Prince of Darkness "

My Triumph gave me endless trouble with its electrics. Everything else worked fine. I could even use the overdrive on low gears, which I wasn't supposed to, according to the manual. It gave me 8 forward speeds, and was actually quite a useful feature.

[analog]

Sister's husband had a TR4..

The Lucas "Dynamo" fell apart and destroyed its commutator , everybody in town wanted $200 for a replacement. That was a week's wages!
So we got an old Ford generator from a 60-ish pickup truck for $3.
Moved that wide pulley over to the Ford, modified brackets and put it in. It was outlandishly big for the engine...

Studied the dead Lucas and decided it had same internal field connection as the Ford, so just wired it up. You remember those Lucas electromechanical regulators with rounded top? They're actually pretty robust.

We were really proud of our mechanical job but what wowed his friends at the local TR4 club was we kept the Lucas regulator.

He drove it many years.

Those little British cars were incredibly fun.... the world needs a simple little car again.