"Goverment Motors"

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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby BigJon » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:25 pm

analog wrote:All three, plus the shifter lever, go through that darned CANBUS computer to do their job.

THAT! IS RIDICULOUS! Such an important safety system should have its own dedicated bus, wiring and computer. There is no way to predict all possible states of such a system, therefor critical messages can be obliterated by non-critical but overwhelming messages. Like a denial of service attack on the internet.

There have been some reports that the shifter has been disabled by these CANBUS faults as well, thus denying the poor driver one possible out in this situation.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby dai bread » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:31 pm

I've heard several stories lately where everything has been routed through one computer. The restaurant where my daughter works had that problem. Even the security system went though the same computer as everything else. Waikato hospital, either the biggest or the second-biggest in the country, lost all its systems over 3000 computers because someone did something with a USB stick in a car-park terminal. You'd think people would know better. Even if IT people do tend to have 0 and 1 for minds, you'd think their clients would keep them straight. Mutual ignorance, perhaps?
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby analog » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:31 pm

THAT! IS RIDICULOUS! Such an important safety system should have its own dedicated bus, wiring and computer.


I almost agree - myself i'd rather see them remain simple mechanical linkages.

Even if IT people do tend to have 0 and 1 for minds, you'd think their clients would keep them straight. Mutual ignorance, perhaps?


This over-electronification was not widely advertised.... I was unaware of the extent of it because in my wildest dreams i never dreamed a reasonable person would think of allowing it. This link showed how wrong i was:
http://www.sae.org/congress/learning/te ... enbach.pdf
and it's from 2003!
See page 5.....

IT types are hard to manage because nobody really understands what they do. A "Mission From God" can quickly become a "Tower of Babel". Nuclear power industry keeps them mostly away from the machinery.
I put the process monitoring computer in a nuclear power plant in 1974. The computer can do a marvelous job of keeping track of that huge machine and reporting to the humans running it so they can tell what part needs attention. Really you cannot run a plant of any size without such a computer system...there's just too much information coming too fast for a human to absorb. But I would never hand physical control of a reactor to a computer in fact i think that's still against US federal law.


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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:42 am

NHTS and Toyota Investigators Cannot Replicate Runaway Prius Problem

Using the same Prius that was stopped on the Highway with the assistance of the California Highway Patrol, investigators could not get the Prius to accelerate out of control as it reportedly did on the Freeway. Also, the safety shutdown device, which shuts off power to the engine if the brake pedal and accelerator are simultaneously depressed fully to the floor, worked properly in the tests.

I said early on that the problem may be the result of outside electrical interference, difficult to duplicate unless all of the conditions at the time of the incident can be repeated: place, time, nearby operational equipment, etc.

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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby BigJon » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:02 pm

Or he's scamming. He's a scumbag.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby analog » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:11 am

Sure sounds suspicious.

It is hard to troubleshoot on somebody else's observations.

The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent.

"Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.

The rear brake pads had 1/2 mm left, or 3 1/2 mm less than new pads, the memo said.


That doesn't sound to me inconsistent with the computer going off into neverland and ignoring all inputs , like Windows does-

referring to that Prius brake system diagram a few posts back:

the SLxxx solenoids apply braking under computer control and if computer is off chasing a loop someplace he'd lose normal brakes.
The SMC solenoids allow front wheel braking only in emergencies when computer has failed or power is lost. Presumably they're on a 'Dead Man Timer' which, if computer doesn't pay them frequent attention as in program failure, opens the SMC valves. That connects master cylinder directly to wheel cylinders for "limp home mode" brakes.
Limp Home mode would require a LOT of brake pedal force to slow the car because there's no boost from the reservoir - SL valves are closed. He reported standing on the pedal. Limp home would not apply the rear brakes, which had a teensy bit of lining left about twenty thousandths of an inch.

Computer got a power down and restart when he stopped the car, and certainly again when they removed it from the car for NTSC investigator. So if something did throw program into a tight loop it's gone with the e-wind.

....What the heck does this mean?
The brakes on the Prius also did not show wear consistent with having been applied at full force at high speeds for a long period,

That's somebody's opinion about their observation and they didn't bother to describe what they saw.
Reporters are real frustrating.

So who knows?

To me the question is how'd the back wheel brake linings get so worn out in a car only a year old?
Maybe you're right and he's been practicing for this...... realtor + lawyer + $$$ = monkey business???
and there's this from the practical Canadians:
Runaway Prius story more fiction than fact

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Run ... z0i570pJ2r

If this phenomenon is real some hobbyist who's hooked his laptop to his car's Canbus port will soon capture a runaway event and put it on Youtube.
http://www.vassfamily.net/ToyotaPrius/CAN/cindex.html
Image

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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:35 pm

Toyota Simulator here
Thinking is overrated
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby dai bread » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:04 pm

Giant Communist Robot wrote:Toyota Simulator here


That's about the speed of a Playstation car racing game. My 8-year-old grandson handles those with ease.

As far as the press goes, don't forget these are the same people who hailed Barack Obama as the Messiah and had him walking on water to a New Jerusalem; especially the press in Europe, and especially the people who gave him the Nobel Peace Prize before he'd even been inaugurated. The general rule now is: if an authority says something , it is wrong.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:35 pm

dai bread wrote:...don't forget these are the same people who hailed Barack Obama as the Messiah and had him walking on water to a New Jerusalem ...


Speaking of which, I supposed you've noticed he's about as popular as warts in old Jerusalem...
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:05 pm

Image
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby jamiebk » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:06 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:Image



BS :roll:
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Haggis@wk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:00 pm

Now THIS is a real car threat. I didn’t know the technology was that common
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby piqaboo » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:17 pm

Bad system security.
That 'another employee' may well be in hot water too. His/her password should not have been accessible to R-L.
... Ramos-Lopez’s account had been closed when he was terminated from Texas Auto Center in a workforce reduction last month, but he allegedly got in through another employee’s account, ...
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby jamiebk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:22 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:Now THIS is a real car threat. I didn’t know the technology was that common

I often wonder if some "OnStar" employee could play havoc with the disablement software on board the cars. We often see commercials for cars being chased by police who are in communication with OnStar. After confirming the identity of the car they are chasing, the OnStar person simply cuts the power to the car and it rolls to a stop. Unnverving if you ask me....
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:41 am

jamiebk wrote:I often wonder if some "OnStar" employee could play havoc with the disablement software on board the cars. We often see commercials for cars being chased by police who are in communication with OnStar. After confirming the identity of the car they are chasing, the OnStar person simply cuts the power to the car and it rolls to a stop. Unnverving if you ask me....


I don't usually watch much television, but I did see an CSI episode in which that happened.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:02 am

jamiebk wrote:
Haggis@wk wrote:Now THIS is a real car threat. I didn’t know the technology was that common

I often wonder if some "OnStar" employee could play havoc with the disablement software on board the cars. We often see commercials for cars being chased by police who are in communication with OnStar. After confirming the identity of the car they are chasing, the OnStar person simply cuts the power to the car and it rolls to a stop. Unnverving if you ask me....


In the abstract I can almost (almost!) see the need for this. But when I consider it personally I find it more than a little invasive that a car bought, paid and titled by me can be disabled on a whim. If we no longer have control over what we buy is the millennia old concept of private property threaten?

I haven’t bought a Kindle simply because I found out that Amazon can delete books at any time regardless if you have bought it. Plus, I can give you a paperback that I bought but if I give you a copy of my electronic book I can be prosecuted.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Shapley » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:37 am

Quod scripsi, scripsi.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby piqaboo » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:56 am

Kinda like 'owning' a condo.
You have the right to use the space between the walls. You have the right to use the outdoors areas.
You have no right to make changes to the windows,walls,ceiling, landscape.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:55 pm





The backers of the bailouts to General Motors cried with triumph this week when the automaker announced that they had repaid their bailout loans ahead of schedule. That amounted to proof of the wisdom of government intervention, the argument went, and wondered aloud why bailout critics didn’t acknowledge their errors. Perhaps it’s because the government essentially got paid off with even more government money:

During an April 20 hearing on Capital Hill, Sen. Tom Carper, (D-Del.) asked some pointed questions of Neil Barofsky, the “special watch dog” on the Wall Street Bailout, aka, TARP.

“It’s good news in that they’re reducing their debt,” Barofsky said of the accelerated GM payments, “but they’re doing it by taking other available TARP money.”…

“It sounds like it’s kind of like taking money out of one pocket and putting in the other,” said Carper, who got a nod of agreement from Barofsky.

“The way that payment is going to be made is by drawing down on an equity facility of other TARP money.”
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
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Re: "Goverment Motors"

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:45 pm

Saw this today

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged at the time of the crash
Thinking is overrated
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