Gas Price Outrage!

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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:29 am

About those aircraft turbines - AvGas is basically very clean kerosene. I'll bet what runs on kerosene would run on turpentine, which could be farmed on land with too many vertical features for other agriculture. The processing is kind of a cross between maple syrup and moonshine.

Of course then you'd get Greenies chaining themselves to the pine trees and carrying on about owls.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby jamiebk » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:52 am

Selma in Sandy Eggo wrote:About those aircraft turbines - AvGas is basically very clean kerosene. I'll bet what runs on kerosene would run on turpentine, which could be farmed on land with too many vertical features for other agriculture. The processing is kind of a cross between maple syrup and moonshine.

Of course then you'd get Greenies chaining themselves to the pine trees and carrying on about owls.


Interesting idea Selma...never occurred to me, but yeah...seems like they could refine pine sap in some manner.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:34 am

Turps used to be extracted from the sap using a simple pot still. A modern fractional distillation tower would be much more efficient, and some of the heavier fractions might be crackable for more volatile fluids. Any decent petrochemical engineer could figure it out in about eleven minutes, with a burnt stick and a tablecloth.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:50 pm

Giant Communist Robot wrote:
The good news is we have centuries worth of oil and gas in our own backyard.


Proven reserves are those that are economically recoverable. I think most of that pyramid costs too much at the moment.



Nope! All are "technically recoverable" The current prices range makes them more so everyday
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Haggis@wk » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:53 pm

Giant Communist Robot wrote:
Biodiesel can run the diesels in the tanker and those 747 turbines can be re-jetted and run just fine. Algae does have some promise, but the cost and yield remains to be seen. At the moment it looks, well, promising.


Anything that require government subsidies is not "promising," it's a financial boondoggle that taxpayers have to pay for
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby jamiebk » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:59 pm

Start-up costs and R&D can be high...just ask the pharmaceutical companies. Just because the initial costs of development are high doesn't mean the overall product cannot be viable and make economic sense. Once upon a time our country was built on enterprising people who weren't afraid to take a chance. That seems to have changed. Everyone (mostly...except the Texans) agree that oil is not a long term answer. Something must replace it.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:17 pm

Haggis@wk wrote:
Giant Communist Robot wrote:
The good news is we have centuries worth of oil and gas in our own backyard.


Proven reserves are those that are economically recoverable. I think most of that pyramid costs too much at the moment.



Nope! All are "technically recoverable" The current prices range makes them more so everyday


From Wiki:

Proven reserves are those reserves claimed to have a reasonable certainty (normally at least 90% confidence) of being recoverable under existing economic and political conditions, with existing technology.


It's just a definition we're talking about here; I don't doubt there are massive amounts of oil in the U.S. I believe they are called "resources" and not reserves.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:31 pm

About those aircraft turbines


I was just trying to point out this criteria was flawed. I know marine gas turbines can run on diesel, so I'm guessing aircraft could too. They can probably be made to run on just about any flammable liquid. Maybe someone with some power plant experience could chime in on this. Notice I didn't say this was a good idea. Costly.

From Wiki:

A test flight has been performed by a Czech jet aircraft completely powered on biodiesel


...and then...

Anything that require government subsidies is not "promising,"


I don't know if it requires a subsidy. What I was thinking of was the yield and BTU's. Subsidizing would be a political choice; in the market algae wouldn't require one when the price of oil exceeded the cost of algae fuel.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:37 pm

Everyone (mostly...except the Texans) agree that oil is not a long term answer. Something must replace it.


Eventually. In the future. It's gonna be oil for a loong, looong time.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby dai bread » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:47 pm

Air NZ and Virgin (presumably Atlantic) have both flown planes using biofuel. Air NZ did their test in 2008, though I've heard nothing since. I had the impression they'd flown a plane to LA, but I am probably wrong.

http://www.airnewzealand.com/press-release-2009-biofuel-test-flight-report-shows-significant-fuel-saving-28may09

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1112/S00533/air-new-zealand-signs-mou-with-biofuel-company-licella.htm
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:00 am

Well, there you have it. As soon as we learn to grow all this algae we can learn how to make a decent biofuel from it at a cost below oil. What?....it could happen.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:19 pm

Obama's idea to end subsidies for oil companies needs some scrutiny. By subsidy is meant the preferential tax treatment oil companies get--for example, equipment depreciation. So if we raise taxes on oil companies does the price of oil go down? Currently they are allowed to keep more of their income; if they keep less will we be better off?
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Shapley » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:30 am

Giant Communist Robot wrote:
The good news is we have centuries worth of oil and gas in our own backyard.


Proven reserves are those that are economically recoverable. I think most of that pyramid costs too much at the moment.


As the price of oil rises, the level of 'proven reserves' also rises, because known reserves that were not economically viable at the lower prices become so. Technology also advances (as seen with Fracking), reducing the costs of recovering some of those formerly-unviable supplies.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:55 am

jamiebk wrote: Everyone (mostly...except the Texans) agree that oil is not a long term answer. Something must replace it.



True, it's just that most people aren't willing to accept that "something must replace it" might be as far out as two centuries.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Haggis@wk » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:35 am

Giant Communist Robot wrote: I don't doubt there are massive amounts of oil in the U.S. I believe they are called "resources" and not reserves.



GCR,
Currently the federal government forbids oil companies from doing anything in order to measure reserves on fereral land, much less drill to recover those "resources."

The "two percent" reserves myth represent a tiny portion of our total oil resources. Proven (or proved) oil reserves are reserves that have already been discovered, typically through actual exploration or drilling, and which can be recovered economically. That estimate does not include oil that we know about, yet are unable to access because of regulatory barriers. For example, the billions of barrels of oil in ANWR are not included in our proved oil reserves. And that "proved oil reserves" number is flexible.

In 1980 the "proven reserves" in the U.S. according to the Energy Information Administration was 31.3 billion barrels of proven oil reserves. However, between 1980 and 2010, the United States produced 77.8 billion barrels of oil and still had 20.7 billion barrels of oil reserves left. In other words, between 1980 and 2010, the United States produced 2.5 times the amount of oil as it has proven oil reserves in 1980.

Currently, the United States has 1,442 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil, but only about 20 billion barrels are considered proven oil reserves. That is because the federal government is denying access to hundreds of millions of acres oil-rich federal lands: the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge, the Naval Petroleum Reserve-Alaska, federal waters off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, at least 45 percent of the Gulf of Mexico, the Chukchi and Beaufort Seas, and oil shale on federal lands in Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming, to name a few.

In the case of oil shale (an oil composed of kerogen), technology needs to be perfected to make its production viable, but this will not happen until the land is leased. Obama's Department of Interior has stopped a leasing program Congress directed it to undertake.

We don't consider oil sand to be part of our proven reserves yet Canada does include it's oil sand as apart of their oil reserves. We are a nation rich in energy resources with poor policies that do not allow us to access them.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Giant Communist Robot » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:34 pm

In 1980 the "proven reserves" in the U.S. according to the Energy Information Administration was 31.3 billion barrels of proven oil reserves. However, between 1980 and 2010, the United States produced 77.8 billion barrels of oil and still had 20.7 billion barrels of oil reserves left. In other words, between 1980 and 2010, the United States produced 2.5 times the amount of oil as it has proven oil reserves in 1980.


There was an oil glut during the 1980's. Oil got down to $10 a barrel; that means oil that cost $11 a barrel to get out of the ground was not considered proven reserves. When the price moved up, so did our reserves. No mystery.

I think Obama's plan to tax oil companies is just rhetoric. Just how fat are those margins, anyway? I saw on 60 minutes the largest driller in North Dakota is the Norwegian government. Barrack must be counting on the majority of voters being rabid environmentalists traveling around on solar powered Segways. How else could one get so disconnected from economic reality? $4.36 a gallon in Honolulu.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Trumpetmaster » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:59 am

Giant Communist Robot wrote:
In 1980 the "proven reserves" in the U.S. according to the Energy Information Administration was 31.3 billion barrels of proven oil reserves. However, between 1980 and 2010, the United States produced 77.8 billion barrels of oil and still had 20.7 billion barrels of oil reserves left. In other words, between 1980 and 2010, the United States produced 2.5 times the amount of oil as it has proven oil reserves in 1980.


There was an oil glut during the 1980's. Oil got down to $10 a barrel; that means oil that cost $11 a barrel to get out of the ground was not considered proven reserves. When the price moved up, so did our reserves. No mystery.

I think Obama's plan to tax oil companies is just rhetoric. Just how fat are those margins, anyway? I saw on 60 minutes the largest driller in North Dakota is the Norwegian government. Barrack must be counting on the majority of voters being rabid environmentalists traveling around on solar powered Segways. How else could one get so disconnected from economic reality? $4.36 a gallon in Honolulu.



I paid $4.01 a gallon for regular gas last night.
Premium was $4.35

This sux bigtime.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:47 pm

Image
Last edited by Haggis@wk on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Trumpetmaster » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:42 am

Haggis@wk wrote:
Trumpetmaster wrote: I paid $4.01 a gallon for regular gas last night.
Premium was $4.35

This sux bigtime.


To repeat, "We are a nation rich in energy resources with poor policies that do not allow us to access them."



I agree with you 1,000%
I wish solar panels were not as expensive. My next car will most likely be a hybrid. (I drive a Subaru)

We are on the budget plan with BOTH Oil Company and Electric Company.
A few years ago, we received a bill from the electric company that was over $800.
I called and said it must be a mistake. They said no, there was some "adjustment"
that had to be made with the "new" budget plan and we had to pay that amount.
Our electric average is about $225 a month and we always wind up "under" the power companies estimates.
It is an unfortunate "game" they play... Overcharge (then they hold your money) and provide a credit on the
first invoice of your new billing cycle.
Just so you know, we are very energy concious and do everything possible to keep both these costs down.

We have invested in blankets so during the winter the thermostat is set at 62. It is a bit cool at times
but at least the oil bills are as low as we can keep them. End of my rant....
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Re: Gas Price Outrage!

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:00 am

Trumpetmaster wrote:...Our electric average is about $225 a month and we always wind up "under" the power companies estimates...

:shock:

I just paid my gas & electric bill. It was just under $37. Y'all check the weather stripping and suchlike recently? And storm windows and thermal shades and stuff like that? Or maybe just move to Sandy Eggo...
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