Wagner Again

[shostakovich]

Every now and then Wagner pops up on the boards. This time it's prompted by last Sunday's and Tuesday's Hitler, the Rise of Evil. Hitler's hatred of the Jews apparently went back to his childhood. His love of Wagner (Parsifal especially, in the movie) went back to his youth.

While shuffling around papers recently I came across a review from TV Guide, 1983, just prior to the showing of the Ring cycle on PBS. The writer, George Marek, came up with this Wagner quote: "All the evils of the world are due to three causes: the Jews, the French, the Jesuits (in that order) ------- It is Germany's mission to enoble mankind, since the Germans are the race superior to all others. ------- English is not a language. It is a dialect. ------"

It seems the Wagner-Nazi connection was unavoidable.
Shos

[Serenity]

I love Wagner's music; it is powerful. Too bad it has been associated with "evil" in recent history. Is there anything you consider positive about Wagner's music? I love zippin' through traffic with "Ride of the Valkyries".

[thornhill]

Why is it that if someone is good at something in one sphere, we expect them to be good in another? Look at athletes. Because someone can hit 500 home runs, we assume that therefore they are (and should be) an outstanding citizen. The whole reason behind banning Pete Rose from the hall of fame was because he was a degenerate gambler who evaded taxes and liked to hang out with some pretty shady people. Why should his personal character/problems having any influence over his achievements on the sports field? Isn't the hall of fame supposed to recognize greatness on the baseball field? Not be a human character/citizenship award? Or how about this: what if Wagner was some totally unknown composer whose music was only first discovered and performed 50 years after his death and despite research, little was actually known about him. Or what if Beethoven's secret diary about his hate for blacks was discovered tomorrow?

[dai bread]

Perhaps time is eliminating the Nazis, or at least sending them off people's radar screens. When I was in Japan about 7 years ago I bought an ornament for the car. It carries a prominent swastika. It's the Bhuddist swastika of course, with the arms reversed from the Nazi one. Nevertheless, the difference is not immediately obvious, but nobody has ever said a word about it. Perhaps they're afraid I'll put the Gestapo on to them.

So I enjoy my Wagner and never give a thought to the man's obnoxious beliefs.

[shostakovich]

Hi Serenity. I'm one of the guys who is for Wagner's music, at least the highlights, and preferably the orchestral ones.

Hi Thorny, good points. I'd be the last to expect ability in one area to imply anything about another area. That rumor about Beethoven won't fly, though.
Shos

[dkm32]

Originally posted by thornhill:
The whole reason behind banning Pete Rose from the hall of fame was because he was a degenerate gambler who evaded taxes and liked to hang out with some pretty shady people. Why should his personal character/problems having any influence over his achievements on the sports field? Isn't the hall of fame supposed to recognize greatness on the baseball field?

Pete's problem is that he bet on baseball. Ever since the Black Socks scandle that is a absolute no-no! That's why he isn't in the Hall of Fame. He agreed to be kicked out of baseball rather than have the whole thing investigated. (Recent word is that he even bet on the games he was in.)

Now, backto Wagner...

<small>[ 05-24-2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: dkm32 ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Lyle Wagner? :p

[dkm32]

Originally posted by operatenor:
Lyle Wagner? :p

Oh, and I suppose you would prefer Lindsey, right???

[thornhill]

Pete's problem is that he bet on baseball. Ever since the Black Socks scandle that is a absolute no-no! That's why he isn't in the Hall of Fame. He agreed to be kicked out of baseball rather than have the whole thing investigated. (Recent word is that he even bet on the games he was in.)

He only bet that his team would win.

[OperaTenor]

[quote]Originally posted by dkm32:
[b] [quote]Originally posted by operatenor:
[b] Lyle Wagner?

[BenMurphy6]

anybody else ever see those wagner power roller paint sprayers on tv? pretty cool, huh?

[dkm32]

Yet another kidnapped and derailed topic!

Anyone keeping count?

<small>[ 05-25-2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: dkm32 ]</small>

[Serenity]

No wonder I have trouble referring back to a topic on the bulletin board! How did we go from Wagner's music to Pete Rose; did Pete gamble to Wagner's music? Who's Lyle Wagner? Shall we discuss Lindsey and Rober Wagner now?

[dkm32]

Originally posted by Serenity:
No wonder I have trouble referring back to a topic on the bulletin board! How did we go from Wagner's music to Pete Rose; did Pete gamble to Wagner's music? Who's Lyle Wagner? Shall we discuss Lindsey and Rober Wagner now?

Re-cap for Serenity:

Thornhill suggested that censorship of [Richard] Wagner's music was akin to keeping Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame.

Lyle Wagner was an actor/comdeian on the old Carol Burnet Show.

We've aready discussed Lindsey enough for OT to start drooling.

Did you mean Robert or Roger Wagner? Roger Wagner (I'll assume that's who you meant) would be too much on topic, musically speaking.

Serenity, don't try to make too much out of a topic once OT gets his hands on it...You'll go nuts!

<small>[ 05-25-2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: dkm32 ]</small>

[Serenity]

Sorry...it's like playing the telephone game at parties. Thanks for the recap. (I meant to type Robert...I've never heard of Roger.)

I was just looking up Wagner (Richard Wilhelm)on-line and read that two philosophers that influenced him were Comte de Gobineau (known for his anti-semitism) and Arthur Schopenhauer, who was supposedly renowned for his hostile attitude toward women yet led a solitary life and studied Buddhist and Hindu philosophies and mysticism. I don't get it.

[dkm32]

Serenity: To keep from boring people...and, going even further off thread... for info on Roger Wagner, take a look at:

http://dickwagner.com/Recording/roger_wagner.htm

[Bones]

Donna said, "Lyle Wagner was an actor/comdeian on the old Carol Burnet Show."

That was Lyle WAGONER, not Wagner. Different branch of the family tree.

[OperaTenor]

Bones, picky, picky, picky! Besides, I have to claim repsonsibility for the misspell, being as it was a weak attempt (again) at humor.

Now, as for Richard Wagner and censorship (sit down Donna, I'm On Topic), I feel it would be a matter of let-him/her-who-is-without-sin-cast-the-first-stone time, and then where do we draw the line?

A friend of mine told me last night of classic books and historical facts in public schools being altered for the sake of being inoffensive to various races or beliefs. Does anyone know if this is true? (okay Donna, now I'm derailing a little) As an example, in To Kill A Mockingbird, all derogatory refences to Afro-americans have been removed or "P.C.'d"?!! To me it seems wrong that our past and heritage are altered to the point the truth is lost. I don't feel we can really learn from our history if we don't learn what our past mistakes were, for all of their ugliness and wrongness. Sounds way too much like 1984.

<small>[ 05-25-2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: operatenor ]</small>

[dkm32]

Originally posted by operatenor:
(sit down Donna, I'm [b]On Topic), [/b]

Sitting down, Sir!

But, before I do, can I mention...Using a search engine, I get 9 hits for Lyle "Wagner" and the Carol Carol Burnett Show and only 4 for Lyle "Wagoner".

Now, Sitting Down.
(This must Thrill, OT. A woman finally doing what he tells her!!!)

OK., NOW back to Richard...

[bswarms]

Oops, guess I better change my ways.