Thoughts About Death

[shostakovich]

I don't think anybody understands what "life" actually is, but it's connected to energy within organisms that generates electrical impulses that can be measured. There may be another side of life that can NOT be measured. By definition, we CAN'T know this. When a person flat-lines, the measurable energy leaves the body. Where does the life force (whatever it is) go?

Some people think it moves to another organism immediately or in time. This is re-incarnation. This is a guess consistent with some universal laws: Conservation of Matter, Conservation of Energy. Conservation of life force can neither be dismissed nor verified as yet.

I believe all other concepts of an afterlife are nothing more than wishful thinking. That's my take, and I'm not pushing it on anyone. But the reason I believe this is that no living being can experience death: nothingness. No brain function. It's a non-experience.

We know what happens to the body. Resurrection is not an option. The consciousness and memory disintegrate with the brain. No Bridey Murphy.
No right hand of God. No us.

And you thought the national debt thread was gloomy.
Shos

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

What? You have no ghosts?

I feel a certainty that we continue. I'm pretty sure that some of us have been around this loop more than once (this is a conviction that I share with my late grandmother).

If we get new bodies at some future point in time, I want a new one. This one is not so good as it once was. If we postulate the resurrection of the body that the literalist Christians insist on, it's going to involve miracles anyway and so I want a full-up big-time good miracle. For the rest, I don't expect wings, harps, clouds, gates, or old saints with big record books.

I'm comfortable with The Next Thing being a mystery. I don't have to understand Who's in charge, I'm not in possession of the Head Office's phone number, and I don't need to keep some sort of a Lifetime Score to qualify for my next job.

Relax, Shos. If I'm right, you'll get better students next time around. If I'm wrong, none of us will ever know it.

[analog]

Shos - are you a fan of Loren Eiseley? I'd bet so, but if not:

He suggests we are connected to the past by some thread of life that we don't comprehend.

" we collapse inward with age. We die. Our bodies . . . are dismissed into their elements. What is carried onward, assuming we have descendants, is the little capsule of instructions such as I encountered hastening by me in the shape of a running seed. We have learned the first biological lesson: that in each generation life passes through the eye of a needle . . . As the ages pass, so too variants of the code . . . or the code changes by subtle degrees through the statistical altering of individuals; until I, as the fading Neanderthals must once have done, have looked with still-living eyes upon the creature whose genotype was possibly to replace me."


He offers the analogy of a spider whose web he once touched gently, confounding spider:
"A pencil point was an intrusion into this universe for which no precedent existed. Spider was circumscribed by spider ideas; its universe was spider universe. All outside was irrational, extraneous, at best raw material for spider. As I proceeded on my way along the gully, like a vast impossible shadow, I realized that in the world of spider I did not exist.....
What is it we are a part of that we do not see, as the spider was not gifted to discern my face, or my little probe into her world? "

Loren Eiseley, 'The Hidden Teacher'

cf a paper posted at:
http://glass.ed.asu.edu/gene/papers/eiseley.html

I'm a believer in your other side that can't be measured. Not yet, anyhow.

When I get to that other side I'll try to sneak in one last post!

<small>[ 03-18-2006, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: analog ]</small>

[shostakovich]

Hi Selma and Analog. I'm all for some form of re-incarnation: Conservation of Life-thingy. I certainly don't dismiss it. But if your own life-stuff re-appears later, it has no connection to the matter you once were.

As for Loren Eiseley, I have not read his material. In fact, reading is an effort for me. I never read for pleasure, but only for information. My eyes and concentration are both weak. I used to read science and math in school with a "show me" attitude. I questioned everything. Till test time, anyway, when I crammed to be the obedient parrot. Consequently, I still read everything a paragraph at a time and meditate over it.

So, these recent threads will be my voyage of personal discovery, added to by your commentary. I'm developing my heavy stuff philosophies for myself before your very eyes. I have had virtually NO background in the subject, not even Philosophy 101. The only course I ever took headed "Philosophy" was Logic.

Many years ago I was posed the theoretical problem of whether it's better to take $10,000 per day for a month or start with a penny and double it each day. While most people made the emotional choice of 10 grand a day (instant gratification), the analysis of the choices led to starting with a penny. Since you were to collect all money paid, it was necessary to sum .01+.02+.04 + -----. I discovered that the sum at any time was the last number doubled, less 1. E.G.

1+2+4+8+16 = 2X16-1

I was quite thrilled with myself. On sharing this, I got responses like "Wow!", and "So what?", but not "I know that".

Imagine my disappointment when I learned in school that it was just a special case of summing a geometric progression. Someone else had discovered it first.

Recalling that humbling experience, I expect to break no new ground, and I don't object to some folks thinking, "Heck, I've known that for years". I just want to recapture the joy of personal discovery in regions I have only begun to explore, and maybe inspire others to consider something similar in whatever spare (thinking) time they have.
Shos

And now, to continue --------

[shostakovich]

Since we've dispensed with "death" (wait and see) and the "meaning of life" (what you make of it), let's go back to "life".
Is it a form of energy? Maybe. A force? Maybe. A power? Maybe. I think it's something else that works in conjunction with these. Call it a spark. I omit "divine", but I can't argue with those who insist on it.

Here's a car analogy. A force is needed to move it. If it moves, the distance it moves requires energy (product of force and distance). How quickly it accelerates is a measure of power (energy/time). But without a driver (call him Sparky) it's not complete. What does sparky do that the others don't do? Sparky makes the DECISIONS.

So it's the spark (life) in us that actually decides what to do. This still does not say what "life" is, but it does say what it's function is (but not meaning). Decisions are of three major types as I see them: rational (e.g. what I'm trying to do here), emotional (e.g. whether or not to be charitable), biological (e.g. when to eat). Life spark makes those decisions for preservation and comfort of the organism (when life spark is in good working order). Does this sound like the basis for the evolutionary theory? I gotta say "yes".

Is there a difference between the theories of Evolution and Intelligent Design? Not really. One says the organism (spark + energy) is self contained, and the other says the spark gets guided externally. Your guess is as good as mine.

So what IS life (spark)? If we ever get an answer, I expect it will come from the field of Artificial Intelligence, about which I know zilch. Anybody willing to contribute is very welcome. I know that in the early days of computers some were built to play chess. Some actually "learned" and were able to beat their developers. They learned with great memories and used laws of chance.

There were (and probably still are) composer programs that CREATED new "music". Maybe Big can say something about that. Heres a choice for you. Computer generated music is:
A) a great advance in the arts
B) a wart on the muse's nose
C) both
D) neither

It didn't take me long to make a decision. My mind and body are satisfied by it. I must be alive.
Shos

And just to find out who reads this stuff, X is The Spider's Feast, Y is Bacchus et Ariane, Z is Daphnis et Chloe. The composers are Roussel and Ravel.

[analog]

Originally posted by shostakovich:
I still read everything a paragraph at a time and meditate over it.

--------

You mentioned (i think) that you are retired. I am transitioning into retirement, and to read the way you do is my dream. Gotta get this kitchen finished, and rid myself of these pesky heart doctors first.

Because you're undertaking to ask these questions, I thought you might have been influenced by Eiseley's writing. I was. He's hard for me to put down and I sorta rediscovered him while convalescing last summer.

"... man in contemplation reveals something that is characteristic of no other form of life known to us: he suffers because of what he is, and wishes to become something else. The moment we cease to hunger to be otherwise our soul is dead." Eiseley — Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X
My trouble is, when I try to think nothing happens.

[lliam]

Thoughts on Death
==================

"For the living know that they will die...." (Ecclesiastes 9)

Death is a very mysterious thing. When you've had someone that you loved recently pass, it makes you ponder not only the remorse you feel for the loved one but death itself and what it truly means. I've noticed that some can discuss death very openly, and very candidly. And others you can tell feel very uncomfortable talking about it, they will try to change the subject to some lighter matter, perhaps what they're going to eat or where they're going to go. I think you'll find the people who are willing to discuss death with you are people who have thought about death quite a lot.

I think we should all realize that we all will die someday. When I say realize I mean to the extent that death is just as real to you as talking, walking or hearing. Why is this important? Because we must realize this world is a veil, that behind the curtain of this world, lies our true world, our true reality in which we will spend eternity. And that death is the instrument that brings us into our new world. All the things that seem so important now, won't be important in the next life.

Really consider what is important and what is simply a waste of your time. Death brings us a perspective on life, it shows us what is vital and what is worthless.

I think a lot of people are scared of death because they are scared of the unknown. But if we have faith we know a lot more about death than we think. First we know the Lord overcame death (1 Corinthians 15), and that if we have faith in Him we shall too. If we believe, we know we have heaven and an eternity with God. Also think about all the reports of Near-Death Experiences so many have described. Many have told about their wonderful experiences.

The point is that one day you will die, and I will die, the veil of this world will be lifted. You decide right now what you want your life to be about; you either choose God or you don't; you either choose helping the hungry, the naked, the thirsty, the imprisoned, the sick or you don't (Matthew 25). But remember death can sneak up on us all, and we must be prepared to face death in Christ.

Loved ones will die, we will grow old, and no one here is going to get out alive. Therefore let us rest our hope in God, in the new heaven and new earth, and let us live with purpose, truth, and love in this life.

If we have faith, death shouldn't scare us but we should be able to smile at death as it will be the ship that brings us to the embrace of GOD.

Michael DeAngelo

MJD4TRUTH@aol.com

[barfle]

Not that this is a life-or-death situation...

Ahem, sorry about that, at least a little.

I think I've pretty well gone over my thoughts about death. I've seen it happen, I've come close myself, and while it's an event I want to put off for as long as possible, I figure, at age 58, that I've travelled over half of my path.

Trying to define "life" is a bit tougher, and not even biologists all agree on it. Viruses might be alive, but just barely. I'm not qualified to judge, or even chime in.

I look back on my dear departed cat Misty. Certainly, she was alive, and now she's not, but while she was around, she was a good friend to me, and I did my best to be a good friend to her. I tried to make her life comfortable and pleasant, and I know she made many aspects of mine comfortable and pleasant.

There are those who feel that the purpose in life is to make more life. To me, that's quite precise and clinical, but it lacks elegance. I tend to feel that the purpose of life is to occupy a niche in nature. Again, that lacks elegance.

So, to add some elegance to the equation, the purpose in life is to leave a legacy. That may be "more life," or it may be something entirely different. You may have taught people to read, you may have entertained them, you may have given them a tool, or you may have simply engaged in commerce with them. If you treated them with respect and cooperation, you've made your legacy, IMNSHO.

Many of us consider our lives to be a series of jobs, and most of us derive satisfaction from jobs well done. If, when we realize our work is going to stop, we are satisfied with what we've done, I don't see how anyone could be too upset, unless they were in physical pain.

I've mentioned my cats in these boards several times, and no doubt I'll mention them several more times. Misty died about a year and a half ago, and I did what I could to make her last times as reasonable as I could. I did have her euthanized, because I could see the distress she was in, but she died in a familiar position that she always felt secure and loved in. Does that make any difference to her? Certainly not, but it makes a difference to me. And she left a legacy, at least for as long as I'm able to remember her.

[OperaTenor]

Barfle, your humor really kills me.... (you had that one coming)

I think I've been pretty clear as to where my spirituality is centered, so, for the most part, what I'd have to say on the subject of death and dying is rather predictable. The one distiction I wish to make in that regard is I believe "heaven" is not the exclusive domain of Christians, nor even of religious people. Our modern perception of "hell", and how people get there has more basis in marketing than in the Bible.

As for what "heaven" is, I believe it's that place our incorporeal self passes on to when we die. Not that I expect anyone to take me seriously on this, nor do I have anything more than the experience of my life, or the gleanings along the way to go on, but I think our personal moral baggage has bearing on how we pass into death. Call it righteousness, karma, or whatever, but I believe how we conduct ourselves in this life does indeed influence our conduct into the next stage of exsistence, and that perhaps this is behind the concept of heaven and hell. To me, in that regard, the teachings of the Bible are right on about the disposition of our "soul", and that if we truly aspire to accept the teachings and integrate them into our lives, we will pass on to a good place. And, that doesn't discount or minimalize the exsistence of a single, omnipotent God, IMHO.

It doesn't discount the teachings of at least most of the major religions in the world, while we're at it.

Except for maybe Islam.................

(just kidding)

To me, what's most important about death is how well we live, "well" meaning moral, happy, full, among other things.

I guess "spark" is as good a thing to call it as anything else, but I agree; there is that certain something that makes life more than simply biological animation. The answer may lie in math; personally, I think whatever it is is so far beyond our comprehension we can say for all intensive purposes we'll never know for sure.

<small>[ 03-19-2006, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Hi Shos,

Yes, I was reading. I didn't know Ravel composed any ballets!

As for computer generated music, I've never heard any that I know of. Purely from the point of supposition, I would imagine it difficult to get a computer to spontaneously amulate the intangible qualities brought to music by human influence; Voicing/instrumentation subjectively based on the whim of the composer, compositional "flaws" that sound good anyway, melodious themes, and the like. I don;t see how that could be done and not sound like cacophony.

I could understand software that would generate something original in the style/mode of a given composer, it would simply have the life's work of that composer to draw characteristics from and generate a new piece from those parameters.

But then, what the heck do I know? I'm not going to Yale!

[GreatCarouser]

"His name tastes sweet in the mouths of those who speak it"

My father's epitaph...

We all die...why do we worry so? "I think therefore I am". If we substitute the word 'Ego' for the word 'I' we may be closer to an answer?. It would seem our 'thought' is reponsible for our worry. The word 'vanity' permeates the ideas in Ecclesiastes . I'm trying to stream here rather than string together long thoughts designed to convince you of the inherent 'logic' of my arguments. I don't consider these observations arguments; just passing phenomena, brought to your attention for no other purpose than saying "hey...look at this"...

Maybe we should obey those wilderness area signs that admonish us to "leave behind only footprints"?

[barfle]

Shos has requested our thoughts on some rather deep topics, and I have done my best to share mine with him and whoever decides to flatter me enough to actually bother with my words.

I certainly don't expect to convince anyone of the correctness of my feelings - and I refuse to try. I'm fully aware just how radical most of my views are. However, I do believe they are as correct as I can make them, and I question them often as I go through life. Sometimes I find that my views aren't exactly coherent (go figure), sometimes I find they are in total agreement with the observations I am able to make.

GC, I think many of us worry about death because we have no reliable way of knowing what it entails. I'm pretty sure we all have beliefs, but those are based solely on what we are told, and what of that we are comfortable with. Some of us fear judgement, some of us fear void, some of us simply fear the unknown. I've come to accept my eventual demise. I just hope the road to it is relatively painless and not too embarrassing.

[analog]

deleted

<small>[ 03-19-2006, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: analog ]</small>

[Marye]

I have seen so much death: friends, parents, cousins, young and old. I have seen the terror in their eyes knowing they are dying, I have seen their agony in the treatment they sought and their despair to end their treatment. I have cried endless rivers watching it all while I held hands. No one went quickly, they all lingered, hanging on to every bit of life they could. Most hoped there was an afterlife. I asked them to come and haunt me if they could.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by shostakovich:
... I never read for pleasure, but only for information. ... Consequently, I still read everything a paragraph at a time and meditate over it...

In stark contrast, I found out that the words held stories when I was about four. Since then, I've been a heavy reader, constantly on the lookout for good stories.
On which subject, I really, really resent what all the history teachers are doing to all the stories. I despised history in school, and up until I found the History channel I had no clue about all the stories.

Originally posted by shostakovich:
...The only course I ever took headed "Philosophy" was Logic.
...

I believe the most fun I ever had in college was one semester that included Symbolic Logic, Physiological Bases of Psychology, and Philosophy 101. It certainly improved my ability to think around corners, shifting points of view like I did that semester.

[monkeymd2b]

Well, since I've been in the ICU this month, I've certainly seen quite a bit of death. I've seen what can be called "successful" dying and "painful/unsuccessful dying." The successful deaths are those that involved acceptance of impending death by the family members and a change in focus from cure to comfort. It allowed the family members to spend the last few moments of their loved one's life around their bed rather than watching us pound on their chests or standing around wondering if what we were doing was working with the uncertainty of if death was soon or would life continue. One family of 4 daughters sang to their mother her favorite song as she took her last breaths. Another family was able to see their mother's last thoughts and statements of love because she was able to write these things (intubation was keeping her alive). I think death is an experience that we feel. We talk about the death and dying process in ICU ethics sessions every week. They don't teach us about comfort as much as they focus on cure in med school. And I've learned that sometimes, you don't give patients and their families the option of a full code when you know that survival is quite unlikely (because we can never say 100% until the patient is actually dead). It's so hard to have that conversation with the family when wishes had never been discussed before. And in young people, unless they had a serious chronic illness, you wouldn't expect that it would have been discussed. Yet, I've also learned that even the most dire cases can prove you wrong. We've sent people out to the floor (the regular part of the hospital) that we didn't think would live longer than 48 hours. And these are patients that even the specialists long in practice had written off. And that's usually my struggle. I don't want to give false hope yet I know I can't say for sure what will happen in most cases. I'm told that the skill with come with time. I think if I didn't have to look at anyone when I said it, I would be good. I guess I haven't encrusted my heart in lead yet...nor do I care to do so but a nice little fluffy layer would be helpful.

As hard as it is to know that if my gramps were to be found in dire straits and close to death that nothing would be done in terms of CPR or intubation, it is a burden that none of us has to bear should that issue come up because he has a POLST (physician order for life sustaining treatment) that clearly states DNR/DNI. We will never have to make the choice of whether or not to try to revive him. Many people have the guilt of "I did this to end my loved one's life" because the discussion was never held when that person was clear of mind and able to speak for himself. And in this case, I refer to the people who are over 70 or have chronic illnesses that have caused significant irreversible debilitation. so don't be afraid to have that conversation, it may save you some of the anguish later knowing that you did what they wanted. It certainly won't prevent the pain of losing the loved one. I don't know if anything can prevent that.

dinner time.

[piqaboo]

posted by GC:"His name tastes sweet in the mouths of those who speak it"

My father's epitaph...

That's nice.
It could double as a goal for the meaning of life too.

[shostakovich]

Yes, GC and Piq. That would be a great goal.

Monkeymdib, death is really up close and personal for you. I couldn't deal with it. The abstract approach is the closest I can get, and that's not close at all. It does offer me some peace, though. My real test will come when I face my own mortality. I will probably be a whining wimp, but I hope not. With any luck I will be able to apply the calm that comes from the abstract approach to my own situation. We shall see, but we won't tell.
Shos

[analog]

Dying? Some of us get a dry run at it with car crashes, heart attacks, etc.

OT?

I recall laying in the hospital hearing every heartbeat and wondering if they'd continue. I blacked out a couple times and drew flatlines on the monitor. There was no white light, no ancestors or angels. I awoke to a circle of very excited hospital faces and a crash cart. Maybe it just wasn't my time yet. During Mom's last hour she described our ancestors gathered in the living room and waiting quietly. She said they were happy. She said she looked forward to being with them and they'd told her it was a good place.
So I have no idea whether there's an afterlife. I know that to believe so makes the end less fearsome for me. So I admit the possibility and hope it's really so. At the worst I'll be unaware of it. And I've been there.