The Pulse of Toscanini

[kyx]

By far, my favorite conductor...if only he were recorded with more modern technology.<BR>Here's an excerpt of an interview of oboist Robert Bloom by Time-Life magazine's Eugene<BR>Cook. I found this evidence of the great man's modesty very touching:<P>Bloom:I always like to tell my students when we talk about dedication that at one time there was some trouble at NBC and the Maestro was disturbed. He called one day, and asked if I'd come to lunch. We concluded our business and as I was talking to him, I said, "Maestro, you look tired." "Yes, Caro. I woke up so early this morning-at 5:30 I was studying the score of the symphony." The symphony was Beethoven's Fifth. I said, "Maestro, how many times have you conducted that?" He said, "Many, many times." I said, "And you're still studying it?" He said, "Yes Caro. I'm always afraid I've missed something."<P>That kind of dedication is something you don't find very much. He tried as much as possible to make music out of what the composer wrote, within the framework of the composer's ideas. He would be frustrated to find something that was not very well written. He hated to change anything, so he would just force the thing. It was like forcing a fat woman into a size-10 dress, but he somehow got results without distorting the composer's ideas.<P>Cook: Without doing violence to it. What a contrast to certain conductors!<P>Bloom: Yes. It's so easy to say, "Well, I don't like it that way! Let's do it this way."<P>___end of excerpt___________________<P>As an interesting aside, I remember reading an article in the N.Y. Times years ago that compared the performance length of the same exact symphonies under the direction of different conductors. I don't recall the exact details but, as I remember, some conductor's versions could be minutes longer than another's. The theory proposed to explain this marked variation in tempo was that the conductor's natural pulse rate and its fluctuations in response to the music as it developed actually served as an internal metronome which in a sense governed the conductor's sense of pace. When the conductor's were sequenced according to their basal pulse rate (e.g. from highest to lowest) the sequence correlated closely with the performance length i.e. the faster the basal pulse rate, the faster the performance.<BR>I recall that Toscanini was among the fastest.<P>[ 11-27-2002: Message edited by: kyx ]<p>[ 11-28-2002: Message edited by: kyx ]

[shostakovich]

Hi kyx. Good topic starter on a great old conductor. Toscanini was certainly devoted to the music, and he was not afraid to "improve" on a score. I've read of several "enhancements", but the two I really like are: an extra tympani stroke in the storm of Beethoven's Pastorale, and a gong stroke to fill in a void in Dance of the Furies from Gluck's Orpheus and Euridice. In fairness to Gluck, I don't think a gong was available to him. Can't fathom Beethoven's oversight, though.<P>My Toscanini recording of Tchaikovsky's Manfred is horribly cut in the last movement. After hearing other (uncut) performances that I prefer, there's still room for what Toscanini did with it. Toscanini recordings are always exciting to me, even when they are not the "preferred: versions.<P>As for humility, it was not his greatest hallmark. At one time (78 rpm days) he heard a recording of La Mer by Koussevitzsky. He determined to make his own recording of it to "show him how it should be done".<BR>Shos

[priya978]

Interesting. All very interesting. I'll have to hear one of his recordings. SOON. Interesting.

[kyx]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>...Toscanini recordings are always exciting to me, even when they are not the "preferred: versions.<P>As for humility, it was not his greatest hallmark. At one time (78 rpm days) he heard a recording of La Mer by Koussevitzsky. He determined to make his own recording of it to "show him how it should be done".<BR>Shos[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Shostakovich: I enjoyed your comments very much. For me, Toscanini's conceptions of the works of Beethoven, Brahms, Verdi and Wagner are completely coherent and alive....vividly passionate emotional experiences that are deeply communicated despite the serious limitations of the recording technology that captured them. There is something about the phrasing and the pacing that unleashes, as you say, an "excitement" that, for me, is utterly exhilirating.<P>As far as "La Mer", Toscanini, himself was not pleased with his recordings of this piece feeling that the colors intended by Debbusy did not come through well enough. Only, much later in life, when his standards relaxed somewhat, did he approve release of these particular recordings.<BR>Many of the musicians who actually played this piece under his direction, however, claimed that his interperetation was unequalled...I remember one player commenting that with Toscanini, he felt so involved in sensing the "spray of the ocean" and the "force of the wind" that he actually forgot to play

[shostakovich]

Hi again, kyx. Good additional anecdotes. My info on Toscanini comes mainly from one book and dozens of recordings. Are your sources books, reviews, records? I recall a review of the Beethoven 9th using the expression "white hot intensity". He was definitely special,"in spite", as you say, of the limited technology. There were only 3 recordings that I know of where RCA gave him their best (not the infamous studio 8H): Pictures at an Exhibition, the New World Symphony, and Pines & Fountains of Rome. I treasure all 3. I bet there are a couple of other board contributors that have them, too.<BR>Shos

[kyx]

Hello again: As far as anecodotes about the man behind the music, my information comes from two primary sources: First: a book entitled "The Toscanini Musicians New" by B.H. Haggin (Horizon Press 1967)...detailed intimate interviews of many of those who actually played or sang under the Maestro's direction. I suppose the title is designed to suggest that many have attempted to decipher Toscanini from the "outside" (eg. music critics, historians etc.) but it was the actual experience of making music with this man that conveys the truest understanding of his nature and artistic contribution.<BR>Second: I happen to know a very old man (now in his 90's) who fought in the Spanish Civil war as a volunteer member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade back in the 30's. Whenever I would visit, discussions of music and listening sessions were a common occurrence. He and his family family were instrumental in introducing me to classical music. When I told the old man of my then newly discovered love for Toscanini's work, he beamed with approval telling me stories of Toscanini's very early detection and outright defiance of the fascist regimes in Italy and Germany and how his relentless political inetgrity and deep social compassion could be felt through his music. Through many subsequent conversations, with them and other friends, I began to acquire a collection of Toscanini anecdotes and folklore which I am only now beginning to explore more objectively. The more I learn, the more I understand why, like no other conductor before and no other since, Toscanini was able to make classical music so widely and wildly popular.<BR>Prior to the massive RCA release several years ago, I would collect whatever I could find on obscure import labels in an attempt to piece together his legacy. The following link is a great source for tracking his recorded chronology.<P>Thanks for you feedback.<BR> <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~jw3/Home.htm" TARGET=_blank>Toscanini</A><p>[ 11-30-2002: Message edited by: kyx ]

[shostakovich]

Hi kyx. You certainly come by your devotion to Toscanini honestly. Your friend of the Spanish civil war is quite a treasure. My acquaintance with the war comes from encyclopedias, paintings by Dali and Picasso, and For Whom the Bell Tolls.<P>I once heard an NPR program on conductors. In it, Lukas Foss defined "charisma" as "believing your own bullshit". I always get a chuckle when somebody is referred to as "charismatic". It's clear that Toscanini had charisma, but it came from belief in his musical gods as well. The music of Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, Verdi, and a few others was the prize. He was the vessel. He came from a time when classical music was unquestionably the finest, and got the utmost respect. It's still the finest, but -------. Good chatting with you, and thanks for the Toscanini site.<BR>Shos

[kyx]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shostakovich:<BR><STRONG>Hi kyx. You certainly come by your devotion to Toscanini honestly. Your friend of the Spanish civil war is quite a treasure. My acquaintance with the war comes from encyclopedias, paintings by Dali and Picasso, and For Whom the Bell Tolls.<BR>Shos</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Shos: A treasure indeed...and one that, like most treasures, has remained hidden or invisible to most. It is unfortunate that many of his recollections of the Warsaw ghetto, the Spanish Civil War, World War II in the South Pacific, the early formation of the American Labor and Civil Rights movements...all experienced first-hand (with immense courage and decency I might add) will die with him. He often says that the most difficult thing about getting very old is "the isolation and loneliness produced by outliving your friends and others who have shared your experiences and memories". Still, though now crippled and nearly blind, he lives with a vitality,poise,optimism and wit that is most humbling and inspiring to witness.<P>Now back to Toscanini:<BR>One of the smartest people I know, once remarked that the "perfected state of<BR><B>what something is</B> is <B>what it is not</B>. In keeping with this concept, may I then suggest that perhaps a better definition of true "charisma" is not simply "believing your own bullshit" but rather "making your own bullshit real" ? <P><BR>I am not the first one to notice that it is not uncommon while listening to a piece conducted by Toscanini to be overcome by the irrestible urge to "air conduct". I may be overstating, but as I see it, in a sense, we all "hunger" to be temporarily "possessed" by the passion of the music to which we intently listen.<P>For the waltzes of Strauss, Carlos Kleiber can be quite miraculous in this respect. Do you know his work ?<BR>Toscanini, himself, was quite taken with the ability of his protege' Guido Cantelli but I am yet to explore the very limited output of his tragically brief career.<P>Is a renaissance of interest in classical music among the young possible today ? If it is , I suppose it will be mediated through the influence of a broadly distributed medium such as film ...when the music is incorporated in a way that suggests a spirit that lively, bold, rebellious...even dangerous....anything is possible. To live again, it can no longer remain "my grandfather's music". <P><BR> Good chatting with you as well,<P> kyx

[shostakovich]

Hi Kyx. My uncle once taped an interview with my grandfather for historical and genealogical purposes. Would you consider interviewing your friend on tape? His first hand experiences would make great documents if he is willing. It would certainly be something very special for you and his family to have.<P>I think only one Eric Kleiber and two Cantelli recordings ever crossed my path, not enough to get a feeling for their work. I think when Cantelli died, the news was kept from Toscanini for a while. He (Cantelli) was considered the heir apparent for the NBC Symphony. My one book on the maestro is Haggin's "Conversations With Toscanini".<P>I don't know about a renaissance in classical music listening. It might very well rise out of film music. As I think of the many inventions during the 20th century, a major portion has been devoted to making things easier to do. This has made many of us (including me) lazy. I think the state of music today has a lot to do with "lazy listening". Why sruggle with a concerto when a song takes no effort? The answer, of course, is the reward the effort brings. But most people won't make the effort, and the reward will be undiscovered. "Ignorance is bliss" might apply here. It's heartening to read on the Bulletin Board that so many young people ARE making the effort. My hat's off to them.<P>Maybe we can continue our conversations on e-mail. I'm shostakovich@beethoven.com.<BR>Shos