Welcome to 2003

[Nicole Marie]

You may remember a post a while back about women and the Vienna Philharmonic. Well the Vienna Philharmonic has allowed the first women to take a bow on stage with the orchestra. <P>Here's a link to the story: <A HREF="http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,871833,00.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,871833,00.html</A> <P>About damn time.

[TJRDN]

Wow! That's a pretty incredible article. I had absolutely no idea that would be an issue in these "modern times". I thought women in Afghanistan had it bad!

[priya978]

Sounds like the Philharmonic just makes up BS to cover up for their sexist actions.

[bignaf]

well, there goes the last good orchestra.<BR>

[OperaTenor]

Boy Bignaf, looking to incur a little feminine wrath, are we?<P>As fuer mich, vat to you expect von a bunch of uptighten Oesterreichers?

[bignaf]

but they vere a little too auftighten in diese case. I'm looking for a fight with H.R.H. dangerous stuff!<p>[ 01-12-2003: Message edited by: bignaf ]

[priya978]

Isn't it ironic (or not so ironic) that, when was equality declared? Well since then women and men are STILL not equal. You'd think that people wouldn't be that ignorant anymore, but nope, you can't expect people to be decent now can you.

[BenMurphy6]

it doesn't have anything to do with being decent; it's their organization and their tradition and they had a right to do it. not that i don't think it was a stupid tradition, and i'm glad they've gotten past it.<P>i just wanted to clear up that i don't think it had anything to do with equality; i doubt the vienna philharmonic's stance was that women are inferior musicians, just that it was their tradition to be an all-male orchestra.<P>now, before i incur any wrath, i'd like to repeat my above statement: it was a stupid tradition, and i'm glad they've gotten past it.

[priya978]

Then answer this Ben, Why was it all-male?<BR>Then since I know what kind of answer you're going to come up with, Why was it their tradition? What was the point of the tradition?

[BenMurphy6]

tradition: <BR> 1. A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.<P> 2. A time-honored practice or set of such practices.<P>what is the point of any tradition? to keep the ways of a time-honored past alive. the vienna philharmonic saw no reason to change with the times, and that is their prerogative.

[priya978]

My definition of Tradition-<BR>1.A way of delaying the evolution of time<BR>2. A way of procrastinating the use of imagination

[BenMurphy6]

some are good, some are bad...

[treebeau]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BenMurphy6:<BR><STRONG>some are good, some are bad...</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Greetings,<BR>Here's an example of a tradition that has been kept on these Beethoven.com bulletin boards for a couple of years. The older folks have generally been tolerant of the teenage crowd.<P>Good or bad?<P>I'm sure we can evolve.<P>Regards,<BR>Tim B.

[Nicole Marie]

Well Big if you are looking for a fight - you're not getting it from me.<P>If you read the article the Phil was ordered by the Austrian gov't to accept women or they would loose gov't funding. They ignored that ruling for over 6 years so it's about time they followed the law.<P>I'm all for private organizations picking and choosing memebers... I would not want certain men sitting in on my local NOW meetings. But the difference lies in where the organizations funding comes from. If you recieve gov't dollars then you can not discriminate, if you are private then by all means pick and choose. <P>Before I went to the Hartt School of music I attended Chatham College in Pittsburgh - an all women's college. We had the right to be all female because we recieved no gov't funding. So yes I believe in keeping an organizations design all male, all female etc. but once you accept gov't dollars - all bets are off. <P>The Vienna Phil was breaking the law - it's not about tradition - it's more then that.

[bignaf]

YRH j/k - just kidding, that is why I put that dumb grinning face on that post <BR>but Vienna philharmonic was and is the greatest orchestra in the world. and I hopoe there won't be any political nonsense to make any less so. like enforcing a numerus clausus.<p>[ 01-13-2003: Message edited by: bignaf ]

[audiogirl]

(sigh) Now if Augusta National could move into the 21st century.....<P>Yes, I know it's a private organization. I still don't understand why they insist on keeping women from being members.

[treebeau]

Jen,<P>Is it keeping you out?<BR> <P>Regards,<BR>Tim B.

[audiogirl]

Tim,<P>No, but if my daughter inherits her father's obsessive golf habit, there could be trouble.<P>Jen

[treebeau]

Hee hee, gotcha.

[audiogirl]

I don't mean to be dense, Tim, but what?